Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an audio C

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CaliforniaChas
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Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an audio C

Post by CaliforniaChas » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:50 am

I'm starting to have a lot of projects where I need to deliver 96K 24 bit files plus a 44.1 16 bit audio CD or DDP file.

At the moment I'm creating the 96K montage, then exporting individual files using the Chrystal resampler and izotope dither plug in as step 1. Then I create a 44.1 16 bit montage and redo the assembly a second time by hand.

I just want to know if I can make a CD or DDP file directly from my 96 K 24 bit montage and if so, what is the proper procedure?

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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by distante » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:04 am

Good question I also want to know this.
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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by bob99 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:02 am

CaliforniaChas wrote:I'm starting to have a lot of projects where I need to deliver 96K 24 bit files plus a 44.1 16 bit audio CD or DDP file.

At the moment I'm creating the 96K montage, then exporting individual files using the Chrystal resampler and izotope dither plug in as step 1. Then I create a 44.1 16 bit montage and redo the assembly a second time by hand.

I just want to know if I can make a CD or DDP file directly from my 96 K 24 bit montage and if so, what is the proper procedure?

Thanks,
Chas Ferry
No you can't make CD or DDP directly from the 96k montage, but you don't need to redo the 44.1 montage assembly by hand. If you have all your CD track markers in the 96k montage, render with Crystal in the Master Section, "whole montage" with "copy markers" with "open in new montage". That will create one long 44.1 audio file and open in a new completed 44.1 CD montage with original CD track markers, ready to burn to CD or DDP. Or you could render "regions / CD tracks" with "open in new montage" and that will create a new complete 44.1 CD montage as well, but with individual audio files for each track. Either way, CD track gaps and markers will be retained in the new montage as they were in the 96k. Also either way will make a duplicate layout of your 96k montage at 44.1. Whether you dither to 16 bit during the render or after is up to you.
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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by PG » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:55 am

You can create a CD directly from a 96k montage, if you insert the Resampler plugin in the Master Section and set it to 44.1k.
Obviously, you will also want to add a brickwall limiter after it, as well as a dither section.
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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by bob99 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:42 pm

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you couldn't.
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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by Justin P » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:18 pm

I really hope that with Wavelab 9, we see a very simple way to recreate montages at various sample rates. It would require that the user has a folder of files that are identical in length and name, only difference being that the sample rate has already been converted or is already set to the new target sample rate.

For example, for files and projects that come in at high sample rates, I always have a folder of the files at the original sample rate, and then the same files with the exact same length and heads/tails at 44.1k. The files are identical other than the sample rate. I convert them outside of Wavelab with Sample Manager or RX4.

I would really like to see a way to tell Wavelab to change the montage sample rate and then reference a specific folder of files that are already converted to the desired sample rate. I big part of the problem is that the CD track markers are tied to the audio sample of the montage, and not the timeline. So, if you change a montage from 44.1k to 96k, the makers move earlier in time.

There are a few reasons that I don't like using the Crystal Resampler. The main reason is that it only works in the global master section and then you have to add a limiter with a ceiling and dither which defats the purpose of the montage master section that easily saves all the plugins inside the montage, no need to manually save and recall the master section.

The way I approach this situation now is kind of a slow and meticulous process. When I get files to master that are 96k for example, I master them at 96k using my digital/analog chain hybrid setup but at this stage, a final limiter has not been applied, I save the final limiter for the last step in Wavelab for various reasons. I properly name and trim the files and export to a special captured masters 96k folder. Then, using Sample Manager or RX4, I convert these files to 44.1k and store them in a special folder with 44_1k in the title so I have identical file sets other than the sample rate.

I still consider 44.1k the main delivery format because so many online distribution outlets need 16-bit/44.1k files, and of course people still make CDs that need to be a DDP master at 16-bit/44.1k. So, I assemble my final master is Wavelab using the 44.1k files, do the sequencing, any final EQ touches, enter CD-Text/Metadata, and then add the final limiter & dither.

After the client approves the project, if they need masters that are 24-bit/96k, I take a screen shot of all the clip times in Wavelab from the "clips" window. Then I do a Save As... of the montage and add 96k to the title. Then I change the montage setting to 96k. Then I replace each audio clip with it's 96k equivalent.

Then I have to go and change the clip time values in the 96k montage to match the values in the 44.1k version, as well as recreate any volume fades and volume automation on the waveforms.

Then I have to double and triple check that everything was recreated properly. Then I disable the dither on the limiter and I'm able to render 24-bit/96k versions of the approved master. For me, the 24-bit/96k versions are the last thing I deliver to a client after I know the project is done.

It's a little bit backwards, but most clients wouldn't know what to do with 24-bit/96k files because they want to burn them to CD, or put on the phone/iPod for various listening.

This is why I choose to deliver the initial master for approval at 16-bit/44.1k, usually as a DDP with HOFA DDP Player Maker for easy listening by the client.

I really hope that Wavelab 9 can make this situation easier because it will be more and more common.
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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by CaliforniaChas » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:36 pm

I'm curious as to why you would put the limiter after the resampler rather that before?

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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by CaliforniaChas » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:42 pm

In regards to PG's post about creating a CD directly from the 96 24 bit montage, one thing that I don't understand is this. I insert the chrystal resampler and set it to 44.1 and I insert the dither plug in. Now if I go to burn a CD, I don't see any point in the chain where I actually told wavelab to dither down to 16 bits. I know the dither plug is adding the noise but am not aware of it actually doing the bit rate conversion. Can someone enlighten me on this. Where is the bit rate conversion actually happening in this chain? Or to be more specific, where was an instruction given to wavelab to do a bit rate conversion.
Last edited by CaliforniaChas on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by Justin P » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:44 pm

CaliforniaChas wrote:I'm curious as to why you would put the limiter after the resampler rather that before?

Sample rate changes and other conversions can cause peaks and overs that were not previously there, especially if you're dealing with loud, mastered material. Putting the limiter last can help prevent this.

I avoid this all together by assembling the montage at the target sample rate, even if it means having a 44.1k montage and 96k montage. I think it's the most thorough and stable approach and I don't have the Crystal Resampler in the chain causing longer render times.
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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by CaliforniaChas » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:50 pm

Well, if the sample rate conversion can cause an over that was not previously there, I would think the best course of action would be to put the limiter "before" the resampler and leave enough headroom. If you put the limiter after the sample rate conversion I would think the clipping would have already occured before the audio reached the limiter.

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Re: Best workflow for Creating 96 montage then making an aud

Post by Arjan P » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:43 am

CaliforniaChas wrote:If you put the limiter after the sample rate conversion I would think the clipping would have already occured before the audio reached the limiter.
In this example you're still in 32-bit float and there isn't really any clipping in that realm. Crystal Resampler > limiter > bit reduction would be your signal chain.

In my experience, the Crystal Resampler needs at least 0.5 dB headroom to end up with a relatively safe (around -0.2dB) file for further coversion, to mp3 for instance. So if you do limit before it, make sure to have that headroom..
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