Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

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crossfirerecording
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Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by crossfirerecording »

I have to say, I just bought the upgrade to 6.5, and I've VERY DISAPPOINTED freewarp isn't available on multiple tracks or groups. This is a pretty standard feature in ProTools since.. what 7.4 (4 years ago) !?

I can't say how important this tool is to me. Is there any chance this will be coming out in an update soon? I will use the "bounce to 5.1 and bounce back to mono" technique for now. But being able to simply grab a guitar note on 2-3 tracks, or a snare AND the overheads and move it over a little bit is absolutely amazing in ProTools.

You're probably looking at a lost customer if something like this isn't avialable soon, and I know I'm not the only one that NEEDS this feature.

Please give us some hope :)
Thanks

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marQs
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by marQs »

Not yet here... you still have to use the group function, cut, slide, fade.

Think I read a while ago it will be implemented but - of course - without any date given.
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Centralmusic »

And... I need Warp directly in the arrange window! :idea:
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Conman »

But being able to simply grab a guitar note on 2-3 tracks, or a snare AND the overheads and move it over a little bit is absolutely amazing in ProTools.
But to record properly in the first place you don't need to warp that much. It might be absolutely amazing....
for five minutes for about 98% of recording engineers. And the other 2% use it once a year.
And the more things you move at once the more chance of artifacts being introduced. But I have to agree it's a nice toy.
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by crossfirerecording »

Conman wrote:
But to record properly in the first place you don't need to warp that much. It might be absolutely amazing....
for five minutes for about 98% of recording engineers. And the other 2% use it once a year.
And the more things you move at once the more chance of artifacts being introduced. But I have to agree it's a nice toy.
Yes, but if you're mixing a progressive metal band that is playing very complicated stuff, that 5 minutes group free warp could easily equal hours of doing each track individually. I know because that's what I had to do for most of it.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by crossfirerecording »

Centralmusic wrote:And... I need Warp directly in the arrange window! :idea:
Yes please! This is pretty basic stuff in other DAWs.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by KDEF2004 »

I'm a happy camper if we receive that feature. Engineering tool definitely...+1000
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by fizbin »

Multi-track free warp will be difficult to implement without introducing phasing artifacts. The way the stretch algorithm works...it doesn't make the same decisions on which pieces to "cut and paste" or delete at a micro level on every piece of material. That will mean possible phasing on your drumtracks where there is bleed, unless the algorithm is forced to do the micro edits the same across all tracks. Possible.
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Conman »

crossfirerecording wrote:
Conman wrote:
But to record properly in the first place you don't need to warp that much. It might be absolutely amazing....
for five minutes for about 98% of recording engineers. And the other 2% use it once a year.
And the more things you move at once the more chance of artifacts being introduced. But I have to agree it's a nice toy.
Yes, but if you're mixing a progressive metal band that is playing very complicated stuff, that 5 minutes group free warp could easily equal hours of doing each track individually. I know because that's what I had to do for most of it.
If they've done that much work already then they won't mind another take or O/dub. They will mind an engineer who doesn't know how to get it right first time and lets them go through an imperfect take.
And if it's live it's usually better left as is or abandoned.
And if you can do it with the present Cubase and the tools you got now then write down how you did it and tell the world and then the software makers will have an idea of what the steps are that they have to reproduce.
You might have one way to do it and Bob Clearmountain another.
You want someone to invent something for you you have to at least have the wit to describe it more fully than "Golly, gee I'd love a pair of wings!" :mrgreen:
Fizbin's got it. But that's arty facts for you. :mrgreen:

Ha! Just took notice of this.
5 minutes group free warp

Five minutes!? The band is that BAD ?! Come on. They do progressive metal. Or did they just tell you that's what it was? :lol:
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by crossfirerecording »

Conman wrote: Five minutes!? The band is that BAD ?! Come on. They do progressive metal. Or did they just tell you that's what it was? :lol:
I think either I didn't explain it very well, English isn't your first language, or you're just another asshat troll that has no business posting on the forums. "it would take about 5 minutes" to fix a drum track could take a lot longer if you have to do Kick, Snare, 2 Overheads, hats, and Room indivdually every time you needed to shift something. I was talking about the time it would take on the post mix, not the time a note would need to stretch.

And if you track guitars to drums, and you want to be able to shift them all a little bit, it's useful there as well. Just try track drums that are a little off and try punching in quantized midi parts. You'll understand.

It honestly sounds to me like you've never tried recording and mixing a full drum kit with someone who's playing rather complicated stuff. This stuff is complicated enough that advanced quantize can't correct it. So there are times when I need to move stuff with free warp. And ya, obviously a perfect take would be ideal, but eventually you'll realize that not everyone is perfect. It's a HUGE time saver to catch a handful of mistakes and correct them quickly with free warp, rather than trying to punch it in. Also you're not going to catch things at tracking and they NEED to be fixed later, maybe when the drummer isn't avaiable. So re-tracking isn't an option. Some of my artists come from over 4 hours away.

And I'm not asking Steinberg to "invent" something. This has been standard on ProTools for over 4 years. I guess the "industry standard" of DAW's felt it necessary to implement in 2008. And I guess they figured it out with anybody complaining too much about phase artifacts. "phase artifacts" is a really stupid excuse. Plus this isn't only used on drums. I sometimes track guitar with 4 sources at a time.

I can't believe someone would be fighting against a feature this useful to be implemented in their software.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Audiocave »

fizbin wrote:Multi-track free warp will be difficult to implement without introducing phasing artifacts. The way the stretch algorithm works...it doesn't make the same decisions on which pieces to "cut and paste" or delete at a micro level on every piece of material. That will mean possible phasing on your drumtracks where there is bleed, unless the algorithm is forced to do the micro edits the same across all tracks. Possible.
Not at all. Multiple workstations do it now with no phase issues. They just use the larger transients as a guide the exact same way Cubase does when group editing multitrack drums by splitting, to keep everything in phase. Instead of splits there are perfectly aligned transient markers across al tracks. Works pretty well in practice actually and it keeps things pretty tidy without all the splits, not to mention reducing strain on the graphic drawing for 1000 regions when you don't split up your 12 tracks of drums over 4 minutes.

As to the other comment about "toy" (not your comment) It's about as much of a toy as Cubase's single track warping, which would be .... 0%. These are "multitrack" editors after all... so... multitrack warp seems logical.

Not only do these methods not have phasing issues, some of them even wrap the transients of drums to not stretch the transient, so it all sounds better than a normal stretch where drum transients are beng stretched.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Audiocave »

crossfirerecording wrote:I can't believe someone would be fighting against a feature this useful to be implemented in their software.
Believe it. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately, some people can only ever reference their own limited experiences or use cases and they take potshots at anything outside of that as being unnecessary. It never even occurs to some of them there are times when re-tracking a performance or a track isn't even an option. If it was really just that simple we wouldn't really need audio quantize, warp, Variaudio, Beat Detective or most of the similar stuff we collectively already have and find use for at various times.

Chalk it up as a defensive reaction and forget about it.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Conman »

crossfirerecording wrote:
Conman wrote: Five minutes!? The band is that BAD ?! Come on. They do progressive metal. Or did they just tell you that's what it was? :lol:
I think either I didn't explain it very well, English isn't your first language, or you're just another asshat troll that has no business posting on the forums. "it would take about 5 minutes" to fix a drum track could take a lot longer if you have to do Kick, Snare, 2 Overheads, hats, and Room indivdually every time you needed to shift something. I was talking about the time it would take on the post mix, not the time a note would need to stretch.

And if you track guitars to drums, and you want to be able to shift them all a little bit, it's useful there as well. Just try track drums that are a little off and try punching in quantized midi parts. You'll understand.

It honestly sounds to me like you've never tried recording and mixing a full drum kit with someone who's playing rather complicated stuff. This stuff is complicated enough that advanced quantize can't correct it. So there are times when I need to move stuff with free warp. And ya, obviously a perfect take would be ideal, but eventually you'll realize that not everyone is perfect. It's a HUGE time saver to catch a handful of mistakes and correct them quickly with free warp, rather than trying to punch it in. Also you're not going to catch things at tracking and they NEED to be fixed later, maybe when the drummer isn't avaiable. So re-tracking isn't an option. Some of my artists come from over 4 hours away.

And I'm not asking Steinberg to "invent" something. This has been standard on ProTools for over 4 years. I guess the "industry standard" of DAW's felt it necessary to implement in 2008. And I guess they figured it out with anybody complaining too much about phase artifacts. "phase artifacts" is a really stupid excuse. Plus this isn't only used on drums. I sometimes track guitar with 4 sources at a time.

I can't believe someone would be fighting against a feature this useful to be implemented in their software.

I play drums and have recorded them for many years both analog and digital. It's not rocket science. It's a piece of cake.
I can't believe an experienced serious engineer would bother making this much fuss over a mild ribbing.
So it's standard on Por-Tools. So you can't afford that then?
I am not fighting against the feature. I am telling you why it won't be working here soon and you are BSing.
So your artists live four hours away? What? All of them? Artists find time and artists rehearse until they can't get it wrong. You mean you work with people who can't do their job properly? I'd have understood that twenty years ago but all the kids I see around me now are sharp as buttons. Drums tracked and out in a half hour and just the odd tweak here and there, no sweat.
Commercials? Well they all do use Pro Tools.
We'd all like free warp but we don't sulk and whine with I'm "VERY DISAPPOINTED" after 4 posts in. And you call me a troll. There's a trail of "very disappointed" 4 posters leading out of this forum.
Slightly disappointed but it's not that big a deal.
Calm down.

And I see I'm being followed around by my fans again.
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Conman »

Audiocave wrote:
crossfirerecording wrote:I can't believe someone would be fighting against a feature this useful to be implemented in their software.
Believe it. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately, some people can only ever reference their own limited experiences or use cases and they take potshots at anything outside of that as being unnecessary. It never even occurs to some of them there are times when re-tracking a performance or a track isn't even an option. If it was really just that simple we wouldn't really need audio quantize, warp, Variaudio, Beat Detective or most of the similar stuff we collectively already have and find use for at various times.

Chalk it up as a defensive reaction and forget about it.
I'm fighting against what exactly? Someone wanting a new TOY. You can retrack easily with existing tools.
It might be necessary to a very few but the only thing I'm fighting against is unnecessary wailing and gnashing of teeth about something so minor. I suppose it'd be good to show off to kids visiting the studio though.
HEY! I've changed my mind. I Want One! :mrgreen:
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by chase »

Conman wrote:[...]And you call me a troll.
Conman, you do write some helpful posts, I know. But, as you've no doubt noticed, you've often been called a troll in this forum; and I've not noticed anyone else being called a troll as often as you've been.

Something must have been causing that.

Assuming you're not actually a troll, there must be something in the way you write that gives a misleading impression.

---- If it bothers you to be called a troll repeatedly, you could try changing the way you write -- otherwise, it seems to me that you'll carry on being called a troll because of what you say and the way you say it.

---- If, on the other hand, it doesn't bother you to be called a troll, why not just accept that it's going to happen and stop remarking about it when it does happen?

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by fizbin »

Audiocave wrote:
fizbin wrote:Multi-track free warp will be difficult to implement without introducing phasing artifacts. The way the stretch algorithm works...it doesn't make the same decisions on which pieces to "cut and paste" or delete at a micro level on every piece of material. That will mean possible phasing on your drumtracks where there is bleed, unless the algorithm is forced to do the micro edits the same across all tracks. Possible.
Not at all. Multiple workstations do it now with no phase issues. They just use the larger transients as a guide the exact same way Cubase does when group editing multitrack drums by splitting, to keep everything in phase. Instead of splits there are perfectly aligned transient markers across al tracks. Works pretty well in practice actually and it keeps things pretty tidy without all the splits, not to mention reducing strain on the graphic drawing for 1000 regions when you don't split up your 12 tracks of drums over 4 minutes.

As to the other comment about "toy" (not your comment) It's about as much of a toy as Cubase's single track warping, which would be .... 0%. These are "multitrack" editors after all... so... multitrack warp seems logical.

Not only do these methods not have phasing issues, some of them even wrap the transients of drums to not stretch the transient, so it all sounds better than a normal stretch where drum transients are beng stretched.
Obviously 2 things:
1. It's been done elsewhere, yes
2. It will be harder to implement than single track warp

I'm not wishing against it. I might use it someday, just have no use for it at the moment.
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Conman
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Conman »

Seems it has existed for some time now:
https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=134519

Topic from jan 2011.

Maybe a few more singletrack minds could read the manual? :mrgreen:
But no-ones complained about the Pro-Tools one because they don't need it at that level.
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crossfirerecording
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by crossfirerecording »

Lol. I read that thread a few days ago. That's why I brought it up again. Maybe if you actually read something you just referenced, you'd see that it wasn't implemented. Whoever posted that mistook the feature notes for something else. And if it was implemented a year ago, then maybe someone can show me how to use it properly? And you obviously not the person because you have no clue, or you would have said "it was already implemented". This isn't a "TOY".. this is a useful tool. Go get some studio experience and come back before you continue your childish babbling.

"Just because you reference a quote from another forum post doesn't make your argument valid."
-Benjamin Franklin

Again, this isn't just limited to drums. This is useful on all kinds of multiple source instruments. So you can stop talking about how you can track your drums and it's no that hard and blah blah blah blah... Like I said, sometimes these guys only get one open weekend to track drums. So they drive out here, track for a day or two and go back home. And sometimes we spend that entire time tracking, and don't necessarily have time to catch every mistake. If that was everyone's mentality, why use a DAW? Just track to tape.

Protools 10 is the same price as Cubase 6.5. Just go buy an 11R that comes with it and you're all set. So I had a choice in my DAW, and I chose Cubase for a reason. But this is the first real feature of Protools that I miss.

Anyway. This isn't going anywhere. I was hoping for an intelligent comment from Steinberg or someone that was actually familiar with 6.5's new features. Instead I got someone trying to speak for them.

I guess for now I'll either use the 5.1 editing bounced back to multiple mono. Or I'll do my editing in separate projects and use the tempo map to make the edits.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by crossfirerecording »

Found a decent tutorial that is showing partly what I was looking for. Hitpoint editing from the main editing window instead of going into each track individually. This will at least get me 90% of what I need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0X5LJKeDu8

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by No1DaBeats »

"Protools 10 is the same price as Cubase 6.5. Just go buy an 11R that comes with it and you're all set. So I had a choice in my DAW, and I chose Cubase for a reason. But this is the first real feature of Protools that I miss."

Sorry, the quote function sucks on the iPhone. Had to do it myself.
True, PT is bigtime in audio but sucks as a sequencer. So I think it's not really
a good comparison. I'd miss so many Midi functions there.
Cubase started as a sequencer, pro tools as a mtk system.
And though they're having their arms race today, you sometimes
still notice where they come from (like in this case).

Still this is a useful feature. So +1.
And +1 for the audiowarp in the arrange window!
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Audiocave »

Conman wrote:It might be necessary to a very few but the only thing I'm fighting against is unnecessary wailing and gnashing of teeth about something so minor. I suppose it'd be good to show off to kids visiting the studio though.
HEY! I've changed my mind. I Want One! :mrgreen:
No offense intended Conman but you have this really, really nasty habit of making insinuations about people being "kids" and "bedroom studios" and all that. You think tossing a "mrgreen" behind it makes it all ok but it's rather annoying imo. Seems like 4 out of 5 times someone asks for a feature you don't need or understand you go into this "kiddie + toy" commentary. It's as predictable as clockwork.

I say you should maybe just put up or shut up with the "kiddie" stuff. Let's please see your great "adult non-bedroom" studio rig and lets hear some music you personally created and mixed there. Do you even run a studio business? What exactly do you do besides regularly insinuate that other people are kids asking for toys?

No offense but it's pretty easy to ignore feature requests you don't understand or need. Maybe try that. And no, I'm not "picking a fight" with you (another predictable response after someone replies to one of your regular baseless insinuations) ... it's just so f'ing annoying, your regular "kiddie" implications about people you clearly don't even personally know... which is really unnecessary when you can just ignore it.

The guy asked for a feature that's in very wide use by some professionals and you call it a "toy". Gosh. Chances are that Steinberg is already working on it for a future version because they know people will use it.
Last edited by Audiocave on Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Audiocave »

fizbin wrote: Obviously 2 things:
1. It's been done elsewhere, yes
2. It will be harder to implement than single track warp

I'm not wishing against it. I might use it someday, just have no use for it at the moment.
I both understand and agree Fizbin. My reply to your comments was just to say that phase relationships is not an issue with that feature because everything moves together, so the phase relationships always remain intact. The only real opportunity for artifacts in the sound is the same one that already exists, from the time stretching / warping algo itself. By both using a good algo like Elastique Pro and wrapping the transients (manually if need be), it can produce a pretty good sonic result with very little effort... and no region splitting... and no hit to the CPU or GPU because it can render in the background and play from cache files.

And yes, I do understand and fully agree that these products have multiple features that various people of varying use cases don't actually need or use so that goes without saying in all cases. I've never personally used Cubase's scoring so I pretty much avoid any discussion about it. I simply don't care what they do or not do with it because I have no personal need for it in any case.

Anyway... If I didn't have tons of archived Cubase projects and some clients that still use Cubase I likely wouldn't care very much about any of this stuff that may or may not show up in the product later.

Thanks Fizbin. Best regards.

P.S. Seriously guys, can you even - manually select and move - more than one single warp marker at a time yet with Cubase's warp? Never mind multitrack warping, just on a single track edit. I'm really not sure why these potentially useful discussions about future improvements need be so contentious.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by TimTam »

+1 here for multi-track free warp editing in the arrangment window.

In 2012 this feature seems so obvious I didn't even know it wasn't implamented yet, after going back to cubase from Pro Tools. I was positive that's what the muti drum edit feature was all about, but apparently it's not... Now I'm stuck with vocal tracks that I need to warp to another tempo and I have to go through them one by one, although on their own they are all in sync. It feels so silly to no destroy their timing with each other just cause the warp editing has to be done seperatly... :( :( :(

Time wasting...
Last edited by TimTam on Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by No1DaBeats »

I'd like to have that implemented as a context-editor.
It's already available for Midi. Imagine that you get the audio-editor
in-place on the track where you activate it. Then there should be some
little buttons for switching the edit mode from definition to warp to variaudio
to hitpoints. The switch buttons should be of course always in the middle of the
context-editor, no matter where you scroll.

Now imagine that you have that button on the folder-track
and if you activate it, it opens the context editor on the same
edit page for every track in it. And if you work in multi-edit mode
with context editor on you move all the audio in it with moving one
warp-anker.

Plus you'd be able to edit vocallines with variaudio in context.

This is my FR for editing audio in the arrange window.

What do you think?
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Re: Multi-Track Free Warp available yet?

Post by Centralmusic »

No1DaBeats wrote:
What do you think?
1st: RTFM
2nd: contact support

:mrgreen:
!!! NOTE: This is a user forum. It's from users to users. This is not a technical support forum. Therefore sometime some Steinberg employees appear here and help the users. !!!
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Kennst du schon das Handbuch?"

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