Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

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Fender19
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Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Fender19 »

Is there any way to turn off the Multiband Compressor automatic makup gain? I want to use it strictly as a downward compressor (to control peaks).

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Split
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Split »

Does the Cubase Multiband Comp have auto gain makeup?
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Fender19
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Fender19 »

Split wrote:Does the Cubase Multiband Comp have auto gain makeup?
According to the manual - and my ears - yes it does which is confusing the heck out of me. It doesn't work like "traditional" compressors.

How do I use it to control band peaks without bringing up the level (and messing up my EQ balance) when there isn't a peak?

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Split »

I cant find any reference to an auto makeup gain in the manuals could you provide me a link or pointer to the reference please.
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Guest »

Fender19 wrote:According to the manual - and my ears - yes it does which is confusing the heck out of me. It doesn't work like "traditional" compressors.
The stock Cubase Multiband compressor doesn't have a make-up gain feature. Could it be your settings are a bit aggressive and/or fast?
Fender19 wrote: How do I use it to control band peaks without bringing up the level (and messing up my EQ balance) when there isn't a peak?
It all depends on what result you desire. Maybe try this first to master the basics.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by TwinOak »

niles wrote:
Fender19 wrote:According to the manual - and my ears - yes it does which is confusing the heck out of me. It doesn't work like "traditional" compressors.
The stock Cubase Multiband compressor doesn't have a make-up gain feature. Could it be your settings are a bit aggressive and/or fast?
Not very true, simple test:
-insert multiband compressor
-drag band 2, 3 and 4 as far right as possible.
-set band 1 to a ratio of 8:1 and drag the threshold all the way down, for a normal piano track, it indicates a 35 dB gain reduction at -60 dB threshold but the volume level is pretty much constant.
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Fender19
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Fender19 »

Split wrote:I cant find any reference to an auto makeup gain in the manuals could you provide me a link or pointer to the reference please.
https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... and#p59393

From Andreas at Steinberg: "The effect you hear comes from the 'Auto MakeUp Gain', which is automatically activated for each band. Don't mix that up with the Auto switch, that turns the auto release on and off. Changing the threshold parameter leads to a new calculation of the Make-up Gain value. It has kind of a 'compensation' functionality."

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Conman »

TwinOak wrote:
niles wrote:
Fender19 wrote:According to the manual - and my ears - yes it does which is confusing the heck out of me. It doesn't work like "traditional" compressors.
The stock Cubase Multiband compressor doesn't have a make-up gain feature. Could it be your settings are a bit aggressive and/or fast?
Not very true, simple test:
-insert multiband compressor
-drag band 2, 3 and 4 as far right as possible.
-set band 1 to a ratio of 8:1 and drag the threshold all the way down, for a normal piano track, it indicates a 35 dB gain reduction at -60 dB threshold but the volume level is pretty much constant.
And why would one need to do that? Extreme settings should not be needed for everyone else in the world not to notice something amiss at normal operational settings. Multiband compression is a bit extreme for a piano anyway.
One might need it if the playing was so fantastic, the recording dreadful and the performer dead but under normal circumstances I wouldn't see the point in those settings at all. :mrgreen:
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Conman »

Fender19 wrote:
Split wrote:I cant find any reference to an auto makeup gain in the manuals could you provide me a link or pointer to the reference please.
https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... and#p59393

From Andreas at Steinberg: "The effect you hear comes from the 'Auto MakeUp Gain', which is automatically activated for each band. Don't mix that up with the Auto switch, that turns the auto release on and off. Changing the threshold parameter leads to a new calculation of the Make-up Gain value. It has kind of a 'compensation' functionality."
Quite true and the way it is expected to work.
Now. Why do you want it reduced/eradicated? The question doesn't make sense without a purpose. There are many other ways to control the peaks and the Multiband compressor is not a "downward compressor" or not the last time I looked in the manual it wasn't.
Last edited by Conman on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Split »

Fender19 wrote:
Split wrote:I cant find any reference to an auto makeup gain in the manuals could you provide me a link or pointer to the reference please.
https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... and#p59393

From Andreas at Steinberg: "The effect you hear comes from the 'Auto MakeUp Gain', which is automatically activated for each band. Don't mix that up with the Auto switch, that turns the auto release on and off. Changing the threshold parameter leads to a new calculation of the Make-up Gain value. It has kind of a 'compensation' functionality."
Thanks for the link, as you can see from my contribution, I'm not a fan of MBC's but the fact that each band of the cubase MBC seems to have an auto gain makeup puts me off even more.
The Steinberg Multiband-Compressor
works differently. It is more like a four band loudness optimizer. It was designed to work this way, that's all.
Surprising that it's not mentioned in the documentation?
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Guest »

Fender19 wrote:From Andreas at Steinberg: "The effect you hear comes from the 'Auto MakeUp Gain', which is automatically activated for each band.
Ah, cheers for the link, I wasn't aware of the Make-up Gain. Very good to know.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Conman »

The Steinberg Multiband-Compressor
works differently. It is more like a four band loudness optimizer. It was designed to work this way, that's all.
Not much of a surprise there. :mrgreen:
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Fender19 »

Conman wrote:
TwinOak wrote:
niles wrote: Not very true, simple test:
-insert multiband compressor
-drag band 2, 3 and 4 as far right as possible.
-set band 1 to a ratio of 8:1 and drag the threshold all the way down, for a normal piano track, it indicates a 35 dB gain reduction at -60 dB threshold but the volume level is pretty much constant.
And why would one need to do that? Extreme settings should not be needed for everyone else in the world not to notice something amiss at normal operational settings. Multiband compression is a bit extreme for a piano anyway.
One might need it if the playing was so fantastic, the recording dreadful and the performer dead but under normal circumstances I wouldn't see the point in those settings at all. :mrgreen:
I believe TwinOak provided these settings as a means to TEST the plugin, not for operational use in a mix.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Fender19 »

Conman wrote:Quite true and the way it is expected to work.
Now. Why do you want it reduced/eradicated? The question doesn't make sense without a purpose. There are many other ways to control the peaks and the Multiband compressor is not a "downward compressor" or not the last time I looked in the manual it wasn't.
To me it is unexpected. The MBC in Cubase does not work like a traditional mono or multiband compressor and would more correctly be labeled a "Maximizer" as Andreas suggested.

One of the most useful applications of an MBC is to zero in on problem areas in the spectrum and only compress where needed - and not affect the EQ balance when no compression is taking place. (This is not the same thing as sidechaining a mono-band compressor).

I will use a 3rd party plugin to get what I'm after. Thanks.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Conman »

Fender19 wrote:I believe TwinOak provided these settings as a means to TEST the plugin, not for operational use in a mix.
But one would want to TEST it on something realistic like a full mix (a drum / brass mix even) and not on a single instrument.
The manual's not bad on this. Using something else that does the job YOU want it to do is fine BTW.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/a ... h_0407.htm
3rd and 4th paragraphs may give a clue as to it's intended use.
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Audiocave »

It actually is (imo, mmv) a bit of an oversight not to be able to switch of auto makeup gain. Multibands get used for a lot of different things and some of those cases you may want some bands compressed and the gain not auto-corrected, like de-essing with a single band of a multiband comp, or taming an occasionally offensive vocal frequency range. In that regard it works like dynamic EQ.

Not a big deal but it makes the plug a bit less useful overall.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Woodcrest Studio »

Conman wrote:
Fender19 wrote:I believe TwinOak provided these settings as a means to TEST the plugin, not for operational use in a mix.
But one would want to TEST it on something realistic like a full mix (a drum / brass mix even) and not on a single instrument.

If that is the way YOU prefer to test it, that is fine BTW. Twinoaks repro is spot on to reveal the results. Multiband compressors have more uses than a full mix.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Audiocave »

Woodcrest Studio wrote:Multiband compressors have more uses than a full mix.
True. IIRC, the multiband comp actually has presets for vocals.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by TwinOak »

Conman wrote:
Fender19 wrote:I believe TwinOak provided these settings as a means to TEST the plugin, not for operational use in a mix.
But one would want to TEST it on something realistic like a full mix (a drum / brass mix even) and not on a single instrument.
The manual's not bad on this. Using something else that does the job YOU want it to do is fine BTW.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/a ... h_0407.htm
3rd and 4th paragraphs may give a clue as to it's intended use.
No, not test in that sort of way, it was just a simple method to show/clarify that the plug-in DOES have automatic make-up gain, nothing more.
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Woodcrest Studio

Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Woodcrest Studio »

Audiocave wrote:
Woodcrest Studio wrote:Multiband compressors have more uses than a full mix.

True. IIRC, the multiband comp actually has presets for vocals.
It probably does because dynamic eqing a vocal helps vocalists with a wide range, which usually have frequency shifts as they move up octaves. It is a lot easier to stabilize the vocal tone than re-eq the mid-frequency content of a song to keep a vocal in the context of the mix. A great tool if that is the approach for this type of result.

Auto gaining the bands, which is unavoidable with this plugin , may bring the need of a eq after it for styling.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Audiocave »

Yeah. I think (maybe too often) people do view comps too narrowly. Sure, a common use is to compress something and then push the entire track up, but another use is for a comp to do absolutely nothing but reduce some occasional peaks over a threshold, and only do that, leave the rest of the track alone.

If that gain reduction is being automatically compensated for and it can't be switched off it kinda defeats that particular purpose.

A multiband comp is a really good way to automatically tame occasional offensive vocal frequencies, once you get the bandwidth and threshold set right. You might only use one band.

P.S. Another thing people overlook with compressors is automating the threshold. Set and forget sometimes doesn't work nearly as well as automating the threshold where it's relevant, especially on really dynamic material where what sounds good in verse1 sounds squashed all to hell in verse 2 with the same comp settings... because that overdub was 3 db louder. You've all heard it, a nicely compressed vocal in a verse but in the chorus when the singer starts belting out the song, it sounds all squashed to heck because the mixer was just too lazy to reset the threshold and output gain there.

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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Arjan P »

Audiocave wrote:It actually is (imo, mmv) a bit of an oversight not to be able to switch of auto makeup gain. <> Not a big deal but it makes the plug a bit less useful overall.
+1, it makes it pretty much useless for mastering purposes. Glad I have Wavelab anyway..
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Re: Any way to disable Multiband Comp makup gain?

Post by Haikan »

Conman wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:27 pm
TwinOak wrote:
niles wrote: The stock Cubase Multiband compressor doesn't have a make-up gain feature. Could it be your settings are a bit aggressive and/or fast?
Not very true, simple test:
-insert multiband compressor
-drag band 2, 3 and 4 as far right as possible.
-set band 1 to a ratio of 8:1 and drag the threshold all the way down, for a normal piano track, it indicates a 35 dB gain reduction at -60 dB threshold but the volume level is pretty much constant.
And why would one need to do that? Extreme settings should not be needed for everyone else in the world not to notice something amiss at normal operational settings. Multiband compression is a bit extreme for a piano anyway.
One might need it if the playing was so fantastic, the recording dreadful and the performer dead but under normal circumstances I wouldn't see the point in those settings at all. :mrgreen:
Wow. I know this thread is eight years old but this just blew my mind so much that I had to respond. How could someone read "why can't I do this industry standard practice that all other comparable plugins can do?" and respond with:

"...Why would you want to do it?"

First off, you shouldn't even need a "reason" to ask for control over your plugin's features.

But if you must know, there is a reason. In my line of work, multi band comps are for side chaining and getting frequency ranges under control, way more often than bringing a range up in the mix. And a good plugin doesn't add situational features like makeup gain (which is usually not the point of a multiband comp) without giving you control over whether or not it's active. Don't apologize for broken software, ask for a fix! If this was how everyone responded to problems, nothing would ever get fixed.

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