general flaw with W7

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general flaw with W7

Post by kamalski » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:29 pm

i am a big Steinberg fan but have to cleary voice my frustration with W7. the jump from W6 to W7 is one of the worst moves that i have seen Steinberg make.
when W7 was released i got the upgrade mainly for its DDP capability.
i have been running W6 from the beginning and master professionally on it and have finetuned W6 to be a very fast and sharp tool. i don't want to go into specific gripes because the list would be indeed very long.
the main thing is: after spending many hours on re-learning W7 to do just what i was able to do in W6, watching even tutorials that are making weak excuses why things have changed, and failing, i still have not nearly reached the same efficiency with W7 as i had with W6. i know that i am not alone in this. my question is why Steinberg chooses to alianate a huge client base of professionals by forcing them to go through this effort and rewarding rather small improvements? maybe that is one reason why the industry still favours other software over Steinberg products (because similar things can be said about some Cubase updates). another thing is that instead of integrating W7 and Cubase that you can interchange between them seamlessly, the two programs feel even more removed, incompatible (still cant just open an audio file from C6 into W7, work on it and jump straight back to C6 to continue) and following a different internal logic. for professionals who are not constantly chasing the latest plugin and a nip and tug in the GUI, a visually, logicallly and intuitively consistant workflow is paramount. W7 has so far failed to present that to me and i am still working with W6, only resorting to W7 for creating DDP images. very sad. :(
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:01 pm

Hmm, I don't really think you are right about Cubase....
The big change from Cubase 5 to SX 1 was a gazillion years ago and it was more than needed, to be quite honest. Remember cutting audio on Cubase 5?

To be quite honest about WL 7....If there was an option to go back to the old interface I'd be the first one to do that...
To be even more honest: I've switched to Twisted Wave for 90% of my wave editing needs because I hate the new interface that keeps me thinking about how to get there rather than just getting there.

My stream of emotion was like this:

1. dislike
2. try to force myself to find the good in it
3. fool myself into thinking I will get there
4. change to twisted wave for most of the easy tasks, only open WL when absolutely neccessary

It's a shame because I used to LOVE WL and it was the only thing I was missing when I switched my production machine to OS X. Now I hardly ever open it due to it's over complicated and non conform GUI.
Every time I try to get something done I almost always find parts of information not shown in the parts of the window I see. It's a constant struggle to scroll through tiny windows....I have a 3 monitor setup and WL is the only app that gives me GUI grief.

I bet that I'd get things done faster in Samplitude although I've never used it before....

Btw, 100% of my income is audio related and has been for last 12 years, but maybe I'm just not smart enough too see the good in the new GUI.

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by greggybud » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:17 am

Cubase-Wavelab extremely cool integration was lost with the beginning of Cubase SX.

I believe the excuse, or reason at the time...not possible because of Cubase undo's.

Prior to Cubase SX there really was no undo or multiple undo function. When SX was released with the undo functions just like every other DAW had integrated years before...it was no longer possible to keep that wavelab integration.

Perhaps PG could add to this or even better...offer a glimmer of hope to bring back Wavelab integration and keeping Cubase undo's.

We all were screaming for Cubase undo's at the time...not thinking the Wavelab integration would be lost.

As far as your other comments, personally a decent owners manual would have helped me greatly overcome a lot of the WL6-7 changes. Yes, I know about the changes pdf...but that doesn't go nearly far enough. Taking the WL6 manual as a start and converting it to a WL7 manual is what is still needed. Rant over.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by LutzR » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:31 am

What I find strange is that there are some users, myself included, that have experienced an improvement of the workflow and an increase of effectivity with WL7 and others, like the OP here, have experienced the opposite. I think we can only find out about the reasons if we go more into the details of specific tasks, way of working etc. A general praise or damnation will not lead anywhere.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Rat » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:09 am

LutzR wrote:What I find strange is that there are some users, myself included, that have experienced an improvement of the workflow and an increase of effectivity with WL7 and others, like the OP here, have experienced the opposite. I think we can only find out about the reasons if we go more into the details of specific tasks, way of working etc. A general praise or damnation will not lead anywhere.
+1
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by kamalski » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:25 am

LutzR wrote:What I find strange is that there are some users, myself included, that have experienced an improvement of the workflow and an increase of effectivity with WL7 and others, like the OP here, have experienced the opposite. I think we can only find out about the reasons if we go more into the details of specific tasks, way of working etc. A general praise or damnation will not lead anywhere.
i hear you Lutz. i'm genuinly interested though:
you used W6 before and the transition to W7 was easy and intuitive and you perceive it as having increased your workflow? how long did it take you to use W7 in the same fashion as W6? do you use W7 often for mastering (professionally) or just for casual work (what does that mean)?
i do not say that W7 is a faulty or bad software per se. my main point is that the learnig curve for a professional user is too time consuming. i don't have the time to spend days on re-learning a basically perfectly working tool with relatively small gain and (for my purposes) some quite significant losses.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by trito » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:34 am

+100

cheers

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:09 pm

It's more than not wanting to learn the new GUI!

Some dialogs (like batch processing) never show the entire information needed (like the complete path).
What's the use of making things worse? This never happened to me on older WL versions.

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by trito » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:39 pm

I learnt the new GUI etc but it's still much worse than the previous one to work with... I don't like it and the workflow fails in terms of intuitivity and ease...


cheers

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by PG » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:22 pm

Some dialogs (like batch processing) never show the entire information needed (like the complete path).
What do you mean? The entire path is displayed both for source and target.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by audiolin » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:32 pm

trito wrote:I learnt the new GUI etc but it's still much worse than the previous one to work with... I don't like it and the workflow fails in terms of intuitivity and ease...


cheers

trito
I completely agree. It's really a terrible interface.

gg
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:54 pm

PG wrote:
Some dialogs (like batch processing) never show the entire information needed (like the complete path).
What do you mean? The entire path is displayed both for source and target.
Unfortunately not.

What happens if the path is too long and the "window" too small?
I don't know about the latest update, but with earlier WL7 incarnations (only tested on Mac) it was simply impossible to see the entire path (there were no scrollbars).
Maybe you have changed this recently. I cannot test at the moment because I'm 600 km away from my dongle...


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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by PG » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:12 pm

What happens if the path is too long and the "window" too small?
In that case, right. But then you must have a small screen and very long path for this to happen.
I will see if this can be improved.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Vocalpoint » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:My stream of emotion was like this:

1. dislike
2. try to force myself to find the good in it
3. fool myself into thinking I will get there
4. change to twisted wave for most of the easy tasks, only open WL when absolutely neccessary

It's a shame because I used to LOVE WL and it was the only thing I was missing when I switched my production machine to OS X. Now I hardly ever open it due to it's over complicated and non conform GUI.
+1. This me to a tee. Except using OSX that is :) WL used to be the "go-to" spot for pretty much all of my work...now it's winding down to the point where it will only sees action for very specific, not very common workflow items.

I guess I have reached a point now where I simply refuse to have to "work" at this thing or continually burn cycles trying to figure out where everything is. This is time I could be using to bill customers and get better at my craft - instead of feeling like I am heading to Wavelab "classes" every time I fire this thing up.
Oliver.Lucas wrote: Btw, 100% of my income is audio related and has been for last 12 years, but maybe I'm just not smart enough too see the good in the new GUI.
I am at around 40% here - and it's not a case of not being smart enough. It's a case that I have customers whose needs have to be addressed and I need tools that let me work unimpeded and do not require a complete 180 (or a complete stop down) when it comes to interface interactivity.
LutzR wrote:What I find strange is that there are some users, myself included, that have experienced an improvement of the workflow and an increase of effectivity with WL7 and others, like the OP here, have experienced the opposite. I think we can only find out about the reasons if we go more into the details of specific tasks, way of working etc.
And I find it odd that we never really had these kinds of ongoing GUI conversations when V6 ruled the roost. Yes - there was lots of chatter on items like the "dated" look etc - but I never once felt that V6 left me confused as to what to do workflow wise. That UI was killer - everything was where it was supposed to be and never felt cluttered - to me anyway.

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by greggybud » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:33 pm

Vocalpoint wrote: I guess I have reached a point now where I simply refuse to have to "work" at this thing or continually burn cycles trying to figure out where everything is. This is time I could be using to bill customers and get better at my craft - instead of feeling like I am heading to Wavelab "classes" every time I fire this thing up.VP
I'm just wondering if you feel a WL7 manual, similar to the WL6 manual would change your course at this point in time?
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Vocalpoint » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:24 pm

greggybud wrote:I'm just wondering if you feel a WL7 manual, similar to the WL6 manual would change your course at this point in time?
I have made no secret about my "Where's the manual" issues since WL7 was released. That an app the size of this one with all it's non-standard layout, design and strange methodologies does NOT have a true Operations Manual is truly sad.

And trust me - I have been a fan of the "Lab" and it's been good to me. I really wanted to master this release but after months of trying (and no manual ever forthcoming)- it came to a point where I just found other tools and carried on. I use WL less and less now but really have no shame in admitting defeat on this one :)

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:19 pm

PG wrote:
What happens if the path is too long and the "window" too small?
In that case, right. But then you must have a small screen and very long path for this to happen.
I have 4*1920*1200.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by pwhodges » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:59 pm

I found lots of things improved for me when I arranged the tabs above the audio into one full-width set instead of two half-width sets. It also suddenly looked much more WL6!

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by greggybud » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:13 pm

Vocalpoint wrote:
greggybud wrote:I'm just wondering if you feel a WL7 manual, similar to the WL6 manual would change your course at this point in time?
I have made no secret about my "Where's the manual" issues since WL7 was released. That an app the size of this one with all it's non-standard layout, design and strange methodologies does NOT have a true Operations Manual is truly sad.

And trust me - I have been a fan of the "Lab" and it's been good to me. I really wanted to master this release but after months of trying (and no manual ever forthcoming)- it came to a point where I just found other tools and carried on. I use WL less and less now but really have no shame in admitting defeat on this one :)

VP
100% agree! I think we all should send email requests to Steinberg. I really can't think of anything else to do. If enough people did this, maybe...slight chance...they might actually listen, and realize they are shooting themselves in the foot. This is truly sad.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Bassman » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:36 pm

I would say, the most users are “semi professionals” like me. Most of time, I do arranging, recording, mixing in Nuendo (for the Band or my own stuff) ... only at the last step, it comes to mastering. So it could be, that I don’t touch WLab over several days or weeks. In WLab6, I haven’t problems with reopen after a long time, but in WLab7, most of the time I search functions. At the end ... I don’t trust what I’m doing in V7 and I don’t trust what WLab doing, so I reopen WLab6 again. At the moment, I’ll wait what version 8 brings and if it not for me, I’ll definitely change (I like the Adobe Audition in workflow and GUI).
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by pwhodges » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:38 pm

Obviously there's not the slightest chance that they will do a manual for WL7 this far down the road. It remains to be seen whether they are having a rethink for WL8 (which we now know will be the next significant version).

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by rockville » Tue May 01, 2012 10:56 pm

As a casual user,I only use it after Protools and Cubase, I find it far too busy compared to WL6 which was the last incremental version that you could feel at home with. It's a bit of a headache frankly. I bought Ableton Live as a different approach to things and I was producing things in no time but to be frank WL7 is a mess, hopefully WL 8 will return to some user friendly, easily worked software. I reckon PG who has been on the ball up the this point apart from the chunky graphics, that I don't mind anyway, will be sorting this out as we speak.

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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by LutzR » Wed May 02, 2012 9:14 am

kamalski wrote:i hear you Lutz. i'm genuinly interested though:
you used W6 before and the transition to W7 was easy and intuitive and you perceive it as having increased your workflow? how long did it take you to use W7 in the same fashion as W6? do you use W7 often for mastering (professionally) or just for casual work (what does that mean)?
i do not say that W7 is a faulty or bad software per se. my main point is that the learnig curve for a professional user is too time consuming. i don't have the time to spend days on re-learning a basically perfectly working tool with relatively small gain and (for my purposes) some quite significant losses.
I am WL user since version 3.
I am using it professionally on a daily basis, sometimes for 8 hours a day.
My tasks are recording, editing, restoration, CD mastering, batch processes..., in short: I am a hardcore user and nearly use all functions of Wavelab. My learning curve for WL7 was short. My first action in WL7 was to assign all shortcuts I was used from WL6 to the correct keyboard commands. I was feeling much more comfortable then already. Next was to setup the control window on my second screen in a similar way I was used from my WL6 control tools setup. Then I closed all workspace specific tools and the look of Wavelab was quite similar to WL6. I created new keyboard commands for regularly used workspace specific tools, so now I can open and close these tools, when needed, with one push of a button - one thing which I still find extremely elegant.
I was able to do my tasks then. The more I used the program, the less I wanted to go back to WL6. I still have WL6 on my computer, but I never use it anymore. Why should I?

I think, what confuses many people are all these workspace specific tools when they open WL7 for the first time. I have said this before in a nother thread: I recommend to close them all and only open those that are needed right then. This will take away a lot of the confusion for many people.

I wonder what the significant losses are that you are speaking of? Please tell us some more details.
Lutz
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by bluenoiseMF » Wed May 02, 2012 7:58 pm

I came to the forum to find the answer to another problem and saw this thread. I have to agree with the OP that the transition from W6 to W7 was quite rough. It seems some things took a big step backwards. For the most part, I've adapted, but the holdout flaw for me is the behavior of the Open and Save dialog boxes. I really miss the way they were in W6 and I cannot figure out how to get the audio file Open/Save dialogs to function the same way, nor do they even follow the standard Windows behavior. Maybe I'm just missing something that should be obvious, but it takes me too many clicks just to choose a destination directory and save a file into it. I do not like that there is a separate "Name" and "Where" field when specifying filename and destination, instead of the standard view of a current directory with a Name field at the bottom. Sure, I can click a menu in the "Where" field to choose a "Standard File Selector," but all that does is make it more convenient to fill in the two aforementioned fields that shouldn't have been presented in the first place, in my opinion. I can check the box at the bottom to "Open standard file selector before this dialog," too, but my goal is to not have to deal with that Save as dialog at all.

The Open file dialog is a standard file selector (good!), but it lacks features I come to expect in an audio application, such as showing a selected file's metadata and the ability to audition in place.

Again, I hope I am just simply "doing it wrong" and there is a way to get these features to behave as I wish. I use WaveLab daily as part of my work as a sound designer, but, even after months of working to adapt, I still find my workflow hindered by some of the changes, especially the ones I've described above.
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Re: general flaw with W7

Post by Vocalpoint » Wed May 02, 2012 8:34 pm

LutzR wrote:I wonder what the significant losses are that you are speaking of? Please tell us some more details.
For me - the biggest "loss" with WL7 was the presumption that different is better. That the core processes (batch, montage etc) were moved in a thousand windows scattered everywhere when pretty much the entire audio world is moving the other way - where a tight, task based, singular interface (ala Logic, Studio One, Audition) allows a user to remain focused on the task with maximum efficiency and minimal effort (or clutter).

Instead WL7 went into this interface that no one ever asked for and certainly no one has experienced before and turned the app from a racehorse into jumbled, window filled mess that has all but the most seasoned vets running for the Close button on every window or panel to clear the clutter.

And to echo BluenioseMF - the non-standard file dialogs, button placements and other stuff that has been discussed here ad-nauseum continue to frustrate me. This is definitely an app with a mind and design of it's own - 20 year old standard Windows UI conventions be damned :)

Those are some of the biggies for me. But - as mentioned earlier - now that I have finally given up hope that anything is going to change (and with no manual ever) my WL days are numbered for all but the most esoteric audio tasks.

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