4 reproducible bugs

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RE-S
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4 reproducible bugs

Post by RE-S » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 am

4 reproducible bugs, all seen with Pro 10.0.20:
1. During playback of an instrument track, a PreGain automation event at exactly 0db which is followed by an event with a very high or very low value causes a short peak towards the level of the next event, sometimes with a noise on top. This only happens at exactly 0db.
2. For PreGain automation events, seems like the screen position for minus infinite is calculated as ... minus infinite. The curve is breaking out of the track area. (Looks like PreGain automation is uncommon, I'm not a pro. I like it because it covers pre fader sends as well. Also the fader remains usable for overall adjustment of the track.)
3. The bypass function of the PRE rack in the MixConsole doesn't turn off the PreGain.
4. The MIDI function "velocity" doesn't allow expansion between 0% and 100%. The minimum is 100%. That's because of the interpretation of the input. A value <100% is taken as change "to". For example, an input of 80% means compression by 20% (to 80%). A value >100% is taken as change "by". So an input of 120% results in an expansion by 120% (to 220%).

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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:57 pm

Hi,

1) I cannot reproduce this. Could you attach a sample project, please?

2) Reported to Steinberg CAN-23532.

3) There is no Bypass of PreGain and Phase at all in Cubase. You can't even bypass these two parameters by itself.

4) Sorry, I don't get this one.
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by RE-S » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:26 pm

1. Find a project attached (for Windows, using Retrologue stock synth). Listen carefully when the Playback passes the 0db automation event in bar 16. Maybe listen multiple times because the effect varies. Also try to move the 2nd automation event from -48db to +48db. In that case the 1st event produces a peak instead of a drop. (Maybe this is only related to my configuration but that seems unlikely to me.)

3.
pre_bypass.png
(8.97 KiB) Not downloaded yet
This dot with no tooltip suggests to me to bypass the entire group when set yellow. If it's only for the filters, then it's not a bug but a misleading UI detail.

4. Notes with velocities of 40 and 60 go to 42 and 58 when doing compression/expansion with 80%. So slight compression is possible, this is a 20% effect. But they go to 28 and 72 when doing it with 120%. This is a 120% effect, so slight expansion is impossible. These's no way to 38 and 62 with this function.
Attachments
Pregain.zip
Pregain 0db peak demo project (Windows)
(22.9 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Evertone » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:45 pm

I'm still waiting on #2 to be fixed since I use regain a lot in my projects. I reported this in march 2018, yet no fix.

Here's the thread I created:
viewtopic.php?f=253&t=134699&p=729284&h ... in#p729284
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:58 am

Hi,

1) Thank you for the project. I can reproduce it now and I will report to Steinberg.

2) I didn't find a report in Steinberg's bugs database about it. But yesterday I reported it, so now Steinberg is aware about the bug.

3) Yes, I know you mean this button. But as I said, there is even not an option to Bypass Gain or Phase itself, so logically it's not possible to bypass it in a group with other controllers. And as you can see, once you Bypass the Pre section, the Gain stays coloured. Other bypassed controllers become greyed out. So this is another indication. I think its just specified like this. Gain and Phase is not Bypassable.

4) As far as I understand, this has nothing to do with the Pre Gain, right? Then I would recommend to make a new thread. Are you talking about the MIDI Insert Compressor? How is the Threshold setup. Where you can see the %? Sorry, still don't get. Make a new thread, maybe with a screenshot... Thanks.
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:03 am

Btw, Why do you use Gain automation instead of Volume automation, please?
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by RE-S » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:51 am

Thanks for the commitment. The thing I don't get is: Why do these bugs have to be reported to Steinberg one more time? Isn't that the entire purpose of this forum? They say "Use this forum for an overview of issues and to report new ones." That would be a funny invitation if they don't read here. How do you report? I thought that's what I'm doing.

On 4: Yes this one is completely unrelated to PreGain. The other 3 all having to do with PreGain is just coincidence. I'm talking about a function from the menu: MIDI > Functions > Velocity. Then selecting "Compress/Expand" as type. The amount input is % then.

On PreGain automation: Tried to explain this in the OP already. Two reasons. 1st: Say you want a track to be audible mostly from its reverb. You need to make the reverb pre fader, because post fader you can't exceed the fader value by more than 6db. Now you're having a high value pre fader reverb and a low value fader. You want to automate the volume of the track, keeping the dry/reverb ratio at the same level. Volume automation doesn't do that because it doesn't affect the pre fader send. You'd have to automate the reverb send level as well and keep these 2 curves consistent for the rest of the work. PreGain affects fader and pre fader, so a single automation does the job. 2nd: When automating volume, as most seem to do, the fader gets unusable. For overall correction of the track's volume you have to use PreGain or an extra insert or to change the automation as a whole. When automating PreGain, you can directly use the fader in the mixer for that, which I find more convenient.

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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:58 pm

Hi,

I would recommend to consider to use VCA fader.
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Evertone » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:34 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:58 am
2) I didn't find a report in Steinberg's bugs database about it. But yesterday I reported it, so now Steinberg is aware about the bug.
Thanks Martin for reporting it. Strange it was not logged in since I reported this back in Dec 2018.

PreGain can be used for many things:

1. It doesn't affect the waveform size of an event like when using volume event.
2. I can manage breaths P's,F's etc... pre insert plugins.
3. Allows me to keep the volume slider at 0, making it easier for me to do precise automation with the volume slider when I get deeper into mixing.
4. Use it as a mute automation effect. Using the the normal mute automation does not allow you mute a track when read automation is on(maybe bug?)

Hope that makes sense as to why this bug is problematic.
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:29 am

Hi,
Evertone wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:34 pm
1. It doesn't affect the waveform size of an event like when using volume event.
2. I can manage breaths P's,F's etc... pre insert plugins.
3. Allows me to keep the volume slider at 0, making it easier for me to do precise automation with the volume slider when I get deeper into mixing.
4. Use it as a mute automation effect. Using the the normal mute automation does not allow you mute a track when read automation is on(maybe bug?)
All of these is truth for VCA fader too.
Evertone wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:34 pm
4. Use it as a mute automation effect. Using the the normal mute automation does not allow you mute a track when read automation is on(maybe bug?)
Mute automation works to me here as expected.
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Evertone » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:58 pm

Evertone wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:34 pm

All of these is truth for VCA fader too.
Though a VCA can work some things, it still affects the volume sliders. This would also require an extra VCA track for each unique track with automation edits, so this is not doable for my workflow. Also, VCA is not pre inserts. Thanks for the suggestion!
Evertone wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:34 pm

Mute automation works to me here as expected.
Same here, but that's not what I was referring to.

Here, try this and see for yourself:
1. Create or load an audio file
2. turn on Mute automation read and create an on/off automation using the square tool.
3. Now, hit play and while hearing the Mute automation work try to mute the track. You will not be able to mute the track. This is why PreGain comes in handy for this. I can create a mute automation effect yet still be able to mute the track.

Let me know if that's clear. I can make a quick vid for you.

Bottom line, PreGain was working fine and now it's not. Just hoping it gets fixed soon, that way I can get back to my old workflow and stop wasting time chatting with you here ;) :)
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Martin.Jirsak » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:49 am

Hi,
Evertone wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:58 pm
Here, try this and see for yourself:
1. Create or load an audio file
2. turn on Mute automation read and create an on/off automation using the square tool.
3. Now, hit play and while hearing the Mute automation work try to mute the track. You will not be able to mute the track. This is why PreGain comes in handy for this. I can create a mute automation effect yet still be able to mute the track.

Let me know if that's clear. I can make a quick vid for you.
I see, now I understand. Yes of course, you cannot change any parameter manually when it is automated. The automation always wins and overwrites the manual parameter settings. You can always Mute the automation track and change the parameter manually. This is not a bug.
Evertone wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:58 pm
Bottom line, PreGain was working fine and now it's not. Just hoping it gets fixed soon, that way I can get back to my old workflow and stop wasting time chatting with you here ;) :)
Which version do you refer to, please? Which current bug was working in that version?
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Re: 4 reproducible bugs

Post by Evertone » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:12 pm

Martin.Jirsak wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:49 am
You can always Mute the automation track and change the parameter manually. This is not a bug.
Yes, I figured it was normal not being able to mute a track with mute automation.
Evertone wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:58 pm
Which version do you refer to, please? Which current bug was working in that version?
If I recall correctly, this bug appeared back in Cubase 9.5.20.
I made a thread then and reported this but still no fix.
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