Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

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Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:40 pm

Hello,

I would like the following bars to be locked when i drag previous ones in timewarp mode. When i work for a film, i oftenly have from 10 to 20 cues on the timeline, at different tempi. When i adjust one by dragging a start of a bar on a particular film frame, i would like the other cues not to move. It's always embarrassing when the director comes to your home and all cues have been moved...

I know it's not clearly explained : if you put the start of a cue to bar 254.1.1.0 which correspond to a particular frame in the movie, if you move previous bars to start the previous cue to bar 162.1.1.0 (same tempo each), then some timewarp thing will set a different tempo point somewhere before and if you change it to the desired tempo, all your cues will stay at the good bars but not at the good frames.

If you're aware of a trick, don't hesitate.

best wishes

f.e
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by gravehill » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:49 pm

Set your tempo change, then shift-click to lock it.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:07 pm

No that's not what i am talking about. Sorry for not being clear enough.

I mean : you cannot use the tempo change trick to adjust bars to begin at particular frames because you can't lock bars (or, to be more precise, you can't lock your grid as you want) and every change you'll do BEFORE will f**k the rest of your project.

For example :

I have a cue that i put to bar 505, and I put bar 505 to TC 01:15:16:20. Tempo is 124 bpm, 4/4. I have loads of Midi events here, and audio events too. Well, if i do any change to tempo before, intentionally, or while dragging another bar to another cue to another particular frame before, then my bar 505 will not stay in place with TC 01:15:16:20

I don't care if it becomes bar 506 or 689, i want my cue to stay in place on a grid, i want Cubase to fill and calculate itself what it needs (tempo change, bars etc) to keep my cue on a 4/4 grid at tempo 124 at the TC i have decided.

Is it more clear ? Is there a way ? I'm losing so much time because of this

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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by JMCecil » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:14 pm

If I understand what you are saying, then you need to change the tracks you want to lock to time/linear mode.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:16 am

Nope. It makes the changes less chaotic but it doesn't fix my problem.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by vic_france » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:20 pm

(while I'm trying to recreate the situation here)...
in the meantime, place another tempo event at the end of the previous cue. That way, when you timewarp the next event, everything before that newly-added tempo event will stay in place.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:28 pm

Yes, i have done that. It results usually in the tempo marker from previous cue being adjusted to kind of 120.856 and the tempo marker from the next cue to kind of 124.239. Of course i can live with that when, like in my example, the changes are not too big.

I also tried creating fake tempo event in between two different cues, to act as a a buffer (or a pad ? sorry for my english) which would take the dammages but it's not working.

I think it is more becoming like a feature request : lock bar number + tempo to specific timecode position.

Thanks for investigating !

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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by vic_france » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:15 pm

f.e wrote:I also tried creating fake tempo event in between two different cues, to act as a a buffer (or a pad ? sorry for my english) which would take the dammages but it's not working
That is the correct approach ;)
So (just to be clear) you do have a situation where you can move a cue to a new position, and the other cues stay at their intended positions on the time line, but it just messes with the bar positions?
It results usually in the tempo marker from previous cue being adjusted to kind of 120.856 and the tempo marker from the next cue to kind of 124.239.
That sounds like you are not applying the timewarp tool correctly..
1) How are you actually moving the cue?
(Do you have a Tempo track in the project window, or are you using the dedicated Tempo Track Editor window?)
I suggest using the Tempo track in the Project window..
That way, you can drag the cue itself, and its tempo event(s) (by selecting them.. including the tempo event at the end of the cue) to the new position.
So you should now have everything in place, apart from the actual Bar positions.
Time to use the TimeWarp tool ;)..
2) ( :idea: cute little trick here ;) it makes it possible to make timewarp adjustments that might otherwise give the result "Out of Range")...
In the empty space between each cue that no longer starts exactly at a bar, add a Time Signature event, of 1/4, then another time signature event (the correct one, let's presume 4/4) at the next bar closest to the start of the cue.
3) Don't forget to put all tracks, including the Marker track, into Linear Timebase.
4) Use the TimeWarp tool to drag the (nearest) barline to the start of the cue (use "Snap to Events" for this)
You may find that the current event's tempo event may get in the way of the TimeWarp's operation, so just delete it, then drag the barline to the start of the event, which will place a new tempo event there (but at the wrong tempo), then manually change the tempo back to what it should be.

Yes, wouldn't it be great if Cubase could just do all that with one mouseclick! :P
Last edited by vic_france on Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:24 pm

Thanks for all these tips, vic_france. I'll try them all now !

best

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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by vic_france » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:26 pm

(hopefully, it will be easier to do than it was to write! :P )
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:37 pm

Yes, it's always a nightmare to write software manipulation :-) Thanks for taking time !
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by jose7822 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:56 pm

vic_france wrote: Yes, wouldn't it be great if Cubase could just do all that with one mouseclick! :P

Amen!

I've never tried this method, but here's a video that may be helpful:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8520185/c6_tcsy ... mewarp.swf

BTW, this is NOT my video. It's from another thread, which unfortunately I cannot find, where someone was asking a similar question (and I kept it just in case I would need this in the near future). In short, in the video he shows two cues that have already been locked, except now there's a need to make tempo changes in between them without changing their timecode. The way he goes about it is by creating two reference tracks (labeled '#TIME' and '#MUSIC') onto which he inserted clip events in the first bar of each cue. Notice that the #TIME track is set to linear mode (and it is locked) while the #MUSIC track is set to musical mode (unlocked). The #TIME track is being used as the event that defines where the music should be after the tempo changes have been made.

Alright, so now you have your reference events and you proceed to make the tempo changes, which would obviously have moved the #MUSIC track. In order to get it back to where it was in the timecode, he uses the Replace Bars function of the Process Bars utility in Cubase. This way he can change the Time Signature of a single bar without affecting the rest of the track. By doing this, you can get the music closer to it's original location before using the Timewarp tool. He leaves the latter for fine adjustments. BUT, make sure you make a note of the original tempo of the second cue (as seen 0:36 secs into the video). Otherwise, your second cue will be out of sync due to the tempo change that the Timewarp tool creates. Just dial back the original tempo of the second cue and it should all line up correctly. That's pretty much the whole process (as if :-P).

I wished there was an easier way to do this in Cubase, like you can in Digital Performer. That would be awesome!


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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:02 am

Thanks a lot Jose, that was exactly what i was talking about. This trick of replacing bars is one of the things i was lurking around.

But my question is : after readjusting the tempo of the second cue, what happens to the following cues (the third, the fourth... etc.) ? They're surely getting f****d. It means each time you do a tempo change in your project, you have to readjust the entire project using the replace bars trick. I've just tested it. It seems ok for project with few cues, but for ones with a lot of cues like i'm on today, it will be a lot of time wasted.

That would be awesome, indeed, to have a way to do this.

f.e
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by JMCecil » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:12 pm

I'm not sure about Nuendo capability, but video projects need a 3rd lock. Lock to frame. The result should be that timeline/musical changes only apply between cues. Events tied to frames stay tied to the frame. Almost like mini projects within a project using cues as the divider. I've used a few of the work arounds listed above, but I don't write directly in a video project often, and not with extensive cues.

There were a few nuggets listed above that I had not thought of. Thanks!
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by Bach » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:53 pm

Really nice suggestions here. This is a feature I would really love to see in Cubase (6.5???).
These workarounds may do the job but it would be great if we could lock frames to bars.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by jose7822 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:11 pm

JMCecil wrote:I'm not sure about Nuendo capability, but video projects need a 3rd lock. Lock to frame. The result should be that timeline/musical changes only apply between cues. Events tied to frames stay tied to the frame. Almost like mini projects within a project using cues as the divider. I've used a few of the work arounds listed above, but I don't write directly in a video project often, and not with extensive cues.

There were a few nuggets listed above that I had not thought of. Thanks!

What you have described above is exactly how DP does it, which is the beauty of it. You can make changes to any cue without affecting the others because they are aking to mini projects inside a project. It's genius! DP has had this since version 5 (explained in the beginning of this video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsXuHc20 ... re=related

I really hope Steinberg incorporates this soon into Cubase, cause it would be a HUGE time saver (especially when dealing with directors who keep changing their minds last minute :? ).
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by jose7822 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:13 pm

f.e wrote:Thanks a lot Jose, that was exactly what i was talking about. This trick of replacing bars is one of the things i was lurking around.

But my question is : after readjusting the tempo of the second cue, what happens to the following cues (the third, the fourth... etc.) ? They're surely getting f****d. It means each time you do a tempo change in your project, you have to readjust the entire project using the replace bars trick. I've just tested it. It seems ok for project with few cues, but for ones with a lot of cues like i'm on today, it will be a lot of time wasted.

That would be awesome, indeed, to have a way to do this.

f.e

I need to check this out. Will get back to you once I try it.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by goodbyenine » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:30 pm

Interesting thread. Timewarp is still one of the unbeatable features of Cubase/Nuendo.

Think about this: Imagine you have tempo events at bars 10, 20 and 30. Fine. Now, you can move the bar line at bar 20 and the tempo at bar 10 AND bar 20 will change. Bar 30 will remain unchanged in both position relative to picture, and the tempo event at bar 30 will be unchanged. You are only moving bar 20. Ok all cool so far.

If you move bar 30, the tempo at bar 20 will change, but the tempo at bar 30 will not, although it's position WILL (because you are moving it). This is because there is no tempo event after 30.

This is how timewarp works. Now try something slightly different. Select the tempo event at bar 20, and change it's value manually, not using timewarp. Now everything after bar 20 will move, and nothing before bar 20 will move. Because we are now NOT using the timewarp tool, we are just editing a tempo.

I agree, a locking feature would be great, to allow us to ALSO edit tempos using the last method whilst preserving the position of events afterwards. For this to work though we would need to be able to tell Cubase WHAT (or rather "when" in time) to lock, and what NOT to lock. Other wise it would be a logical impossibility.

So for Cubase to be able to magically insert the right number of bars, I think the only way this could work as a feature request, would be to have another special marker track, rather like the arranger. If this track allowed us to define the boundaries of a "CUE" or "SCENE", which must stay fixed in time, then Cubase could add or edit bars (or even just "time events?") BETWEEN user defined "scenes" allowing us to work as FE is suggesting and wishing.

I would propose a "SCENE DEFINITION TRACK" for this purpose. It would present a block like a part, but chunky looking like the arranger track. We could then also be allowed to move this event forwards or backwards in time to shift a whole cue in time (as is often required when scoring to picture with client feedback).

Maybe the user could even "timestretch" a whole cue this way, wioth tempo events within it scaled for us! This would be awesome.

But the main point is, the scene track events would LOCK in time any normal events that occur inside it. One could have a user definable option to allow time linear events to be magnetically locked to the scene event, so that when moving a whole bunch of stuff that combines time and music linear material they could move together. Or not, at users choice.

Perhaps, taking this a step further, this could be the basis for the ability for Nuendo to read and adjust to EDL files provided by post production facilities when an edit change of picture must be reflected in an already developed project.

If we did in fact have a "scene track" with the functions I describe, we would no longer need to worry about editing a tempo manually. It would be fantastic actaully if we could also get bar numbers to "reset" at the start of a scene event, so that our music cues all start at bar 1. There would be no real need for bars at all between the "scenes". Just space in time. If we needed to fill that space after a creative meeting, we would simply extend an existing, or add a new scene event.

Thanks for reading...

B
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by f.e » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:35 am

if we could also get bar numbers to "reset" at the start of a scene event, so that our music cues all start at bar 1
: I PRAY for this (and for the rest of the proposition)
best

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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by -steve- » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:20 pm

This would be great!
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by Bach » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:02 pm

f.e wrote:
if we could also get bar numbers to "reset" at the start of a scene event, so that our music cues all start at bar 1
: I PRAY for this (and for the rest of the proposition)
best

f.e
I pray for this one too.
Right now I am in the same position: I had created my tempo map, my markers are in place, everything. And now the director wants me to write music in a place that has not been planned before.
So I have to set the tempo. My cue is in bar 65. That means that everything up to this bar will be fine. But if I change the tempo(which I need to) in bar 65, then ALL markers, bars and frames are getting messed up.

Has anyone found a workaround for the time being?
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by goodbyenine » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:53 am

A general bump to this topic.

In answer to the last post, you must put markers in time linear mode. That's a basic.

I only do one cue per project because of this (timewarp) continuing limitation. It makes mixing time consuming. Last week I coordinated 48 cues for a 90 minute drama.

It would scare me to have all those eggs in one project.

The old cubase VST32 approach of songs and arrangements kinda solved all this.

You see, part of the reason we struggle to contain multiple cues in one project is speed of work. We want all sounds up at once. All mixing solutions up at once. I am forever contemplating over and over what to template, or slave off etc etc all in the interests of saving time. Of avoiding creating the same mix over and over.

On occasions were I have kept multiple cues running in one project (along with the painstaking care we professionals must take over maintaining a history of cue versions, as directors will often want to go back a version) I would keep physical notes of bars and TC positions in a notebook.

To isolate cues, buffer bars and tempo events are the only way. But at times adding bars is unavoidable and out comes that note book.

Please Steinberg read this one. If SB could realise my suggestion: a cue event track as described above, then Nuendi would truly see off (beat) DP.

In the meantime, proper multitrack presets that associate midi tracks with vat rack instances and mixer channels would help VASTLY when using common sounds through a multiple project job.

Thanks.
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by ltf3 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:53 pm

Great discussion ...

+100 for a better way to handle this in Cubase!

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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by ltf3 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:09 pm

How about this for a solution SB?

When working to picture *everything* should be locked to it. All the time ... I've practically made a career out of helping productions do this! So my idea is that as soon as a Video track is added to a Project, the whole Project window becomes a Time Linear space. Any object in it stays where it is in relation to the picture. If picture edits are made ( Nuendo can do this... not sure about CB) all parts in the project move with the picture.

This takes care of Audio events (dialog, SFX, recorded music cues etc) and MIDI events which triggering against absolute picture frames. They'll always play in sync.

The real problem is MIDI events which need an independent musical tempo timebase, which has to stay editable and quantsable.

So we ask SB introduce a new type of Track ... a "Sequencer Track". It is a track which can hold Parts/Events (i.e. containers just like an audio part) ... each of which opens up into a multitrack MIDI sequencer. *Within* these Parts each has an independent Tempo map and Time signature map... so sequences can be recorded and tweaked endlessly within the Part ...using our regular MIDI editors without affecting anything else in the project since the containing Part itself is always locked absolutely to the video timebase.

In this way one Sequencer Track could hold a series of Sequencer Parts (Cues presumably) each of which varied it's Tempo and Time Signature against the picture, yet in the overall context of the image, the cue as a whole remains locked in place. If we adjusted the Part's internal Tempo map the music would seem to change it's relationship to the picture, but no parts would move ... nothing else in the Project could go out of sync.

Additionally all this thinking about timebase being musical or time linear goes away. We just work in each Sequencer Part individually.

Of course multiple Sequencer Tracks could be implemented... for more MIDI channels and so on. Maybe they could be grouped too.

Without a Video track (i.e. just making music) it would afford all kinds of madness ... simultaneous tracks with differing Tempos ( bit like my normal recordings ... LOL), tracks with interacting Time signatures ... all still able to be quantized and edited against each other with ease.

I think this would work ... am I missing anything?

Best

Lee
Lee

Cubase 8.5, Nuendo 10, Cubasis ( gotta luv it ), Arturia Audio Fuse, OS 10.13.6, IMac Quad Core 3.2 GHz i7, 32GB RAM, Radeon Graphics 4GB

chase
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Re: Timewarp, film music : can we lock bars ?

Post by chase » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:30 pm

ltf3 wrote:[...]So we ask SB introduce a new type of Track ... a "Sequencer Track". It is a track which can hold Parts/Events (i.e. containers just like an audio part) ... each of which opens up into a multitrack MIDI sequencer. [...]
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I think this would work ... am I missing anything?
... not missing anything - unless, of course, you don't actually have a team of analysts/programmers and a large development budget to make available to SB for two or three years to work in parallel with the team dealing with the normal maintenace and development of Cubase. ;)

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