Sends on output channels

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Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:10 am

Can we please have sends from output channels? Pretty please?
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Elien » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:52 pm

Why would we need them?
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by svennilenni » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:57 pm

Elien wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:52 pm
Why would we need them?
To send output signals somewhere else. It' s a not so unknown concept in the audio world.

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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Elien » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:58 pm

Well yes.. I am sure there's easy ways to accomplish the same without that.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Raphie » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:37 pm

Outputs are the final destination, there is nothing behind an output, nowhere to “send” it’s signal to.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Double post
Last edited by Graveley on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pm

Raphie wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:37 pm
Outputs are the final destination, there is nothing behind an output, nowhere to “send” it’s signal to.
That's a pretty narrow view. Routing an output to ANOTHER output is one useful example. It's been possible in a Nuendo for a long time...
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Manike » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:53 pm

You've got 4 cue sends if it helps.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:14 pm

Thanks Manike. What I use them for (in Nuendo) is sending my main mix bus to another output pair that feeds headphones for foldback. The beauty of using sends instead of cue mixes is that while in "asio direct monitor" mode, live inputs do NOT get "sent" via sends. This gives me a quick way to send a mix to headphones for overdubbing, but doesn't interfere with the artists monitoring of their live inputs. For headphones, I have zero latency analog monitoring from the console inputs, so if I use Cue sends, instead of "sends" the artists get double monitoring etc.

I realize this is not likely the intention of the design of having sends on outputs in Nuendo, but it a very handy discovery.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Stephen57 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:25 pm

Raphie wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:37 pm
Outputs are the final destination, there is nothing behind an output, nowhere to “send” it’s signal to.
I'm not sure what he means by "outputs" in the question.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Stephen57 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm

Graveley wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:10 am
Can we please have sends from output channels? Pretty please?
You can assign a Group channel or FX channel to any Audio, Instrument or Rack Instrument's output. You can assign group channels to other group channels.

What do you mean by "output channel" in the question?
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:48 pm

Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm
Graveley wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:10 am
Can we please have sends from output channels? Pretty please?
You can assign a Group channel or FX channel to any Audio, Instrument or Rack Instrument's output. You can assign group channels to other group channels.

What do you mean by "output channel" in the question?
By output channel, I mean output channel. "Stereo out 1" sending to "stereo out 2" for example.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Stephen57 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:56 pm

Graveley wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:48 pm
Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm
Graveley wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:10 am
Can we please have sends from output channels? Pretty please?
You can assign a Group channel or FX channel to any Audio, Instrument or Rack Instrument's output. You can assign group channels to other group channels.

What do you mean by "output channel" in the question?
By output channel, I mean output channel. "Stereo out 1" sending to "stereo out 2" for example.
Group out to Group out.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:47 am

Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:56 pm
Graveley wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:48 pm
Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm


You can assign a Group channel or FX channel to any Audio, Instrument or Rack Instrument's output. You can assign group channels to other group channels.

What do you mean by "output channel" in the question?
By output channel, I mean output channel. "Stereo out 1" sending to "stereo out 2" for example.
Group out to Group out.

Ummmm. Yeah, thanks. I'm aware of that option. But then I first have to route All my tracks currently assigned to Stereo out to a group. And any new tracks that I add get default assigned to "stereo out" then I have to go find them and reassign to "fake stereo out group". This becomes very cumbersome in 200 + track count projects built from scratch, not templates.

You cannot choose new tracks to have default output assignment to "groups". Only to "outputs".
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:14 am

Graveley wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:47 am
Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:56 pm
Graveley wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:48 pm


By output channel, I mean output channel. "Stereo out 1" sending to "stereo out 2" for example.
Group out to Group out.

Ummmm. Yeah, thanks. I'm aware of that option. But then I first have to route All my tracks currently assigned to Stereo out to a group. And any new tracks that I add get default assigned to "stereo out" then I have to go find them and reassign to "fake stereo out group". This becomes very cumbersome in 200 + track count projects built from scratch, not templates.

You cannot choose new tracks to have default output assignment to "groups". Only to "outputs".
With Q Link you can Link all the tracks, then, from the mix con. use the Racks to Route selected tracks to a Group. I'm not sure what you mean by "fake stereo out group." There's a final output and at some point you get to the last stop and everyone's gotta get off the bus. :-)

Anyway, I thought more about your post and what I think you're asking for I'd call "a splitter" and such a function would be great. However, it would require the hardware to send the "copies" to whatever destinations they needed to go. An internal routing switcher in Cubase to send copies around would be boss. I can think of many instances when I've used splitters to send copies of my final outputs to other locations -- isolated video recorders, production/comm feeds, IFB feeds, teleprompter operator feeds, simultaneous translation feeds, client viewing rooms, press feeds, etc.

Anyway, the idea is fine, I'd just call it a splitter and not an output send.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by paulster44 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:26 am

External Effects in the "Audio Connections" Box should do the trick.

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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:56 am

Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:14 am
Graveley wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:47 am
Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:56 pm


Group out to Group out.

Ummmm. Yeah, thanks. I'm aware of that option. But then I first have to route All my tracks currently assigned to Stereo out to a group. And any new tracks that I add get default assigned to "stereo out" then I have to go find them and reassign to "fake stereo out group". This becomes very cumbersome in 200 + track count projects built from scratch, not templates.

You cannot choose new tracks to have default output assignment to "groups". Only to "outputs".
With Q Link you can Link all the tracks, then, from the mix con. use the Racks to Route selected tracks to a Group. I'm not sure what you mean by "fake stereo out group." There's a final output and at some point you get to the last stop and everyone's gotta get off the bus. :-)

Anyway, I thought more about your post and what I think you're asking for I'd call "a splitter" and such a function would be great. However, it would require the hardware to send the "copies" to whatever destinations they needed to go. An internal routing switcher in Cubase to send copies around would be boss. I can think of many instances when I've used splitters to send copies of my final outputs to other locations -- isolated video recorders, production/comm feeds, IFB feeds, teleprompter operator feeds, simultaneous translation feeds, client viewing rooms, press feeds, etc.

Anyway, the idea is fine, I'd just call it a splitter and not an output send.
Thanks Stephen57. It's a feature that's been in Nuendo since at least N4. Just wishing we had it on Cubase too...
paulster44 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:26 am
External Effects in the "Audio Connections" Box should do the trick.
No. Not that I can see. There'd be no return and the signal wouldn't make it "through" the external fx insert if that's what you're suggesting.

Like I said it's been in Nuendo forever. And is great for many obvious reasons, including simultaneously processing a stereo mix differently for different destinations. So it's not just a splitter/router...
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by digitalson » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:22 am

I'm pretty sure that you can use direct summing mode and use up to 8 additional destinations...let me know
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:52 pm

Graveley wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:56 am
Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:14 am
Graveley wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:47 am



Ummmm. Yeah, thanks. I'm aware of that option. But then I first have to route All my tracks currently assigned to Stereo out to a group. And any new tracks that I add get default assigned to "stereo out" then I have to go find them and reassign to "fake stereo out group". This becomes very cumbersome in 200 + track count projects built from scratch, not templates.

You cannot choose new tracks to have default output assignment to "groups". Only to "outputs".
With Q Link you can Link all the tracks, then, from the mix con. use the Racks to Route selected tracks to a Group. I'm not sure what you mean by "fake stereo out group." There's a final output and at some point you get to the last stop and everyone's gotta get off the bus. :-)

Anyway, I thought more about your post and what I think you're asking for I'd call "a splitter" and such a function would be great. However, it would require the hardware to send the "copies" to whatever destinations they needed to go. An internal routing switcher in Cubase to send copies around would be boss. I can think of many instances when I've used splitters to send copies of my final outputs to other locations -- isolated video recorders, production/comm feeds, IFB feeds, teleprompter operator feeds, simultaneous translation feeds, client viewing rooms, press feeds, etc.

Anyway, the idea is fine, I'd just call it a splitter and not an output send.
Thanks Stephen57. It's a feature that's been in Nuendo since at least N4. Just wishing we had it on Cubase too...
paulster44 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:26 am
External Effects in the "Audio Connections" Box should do the trick.
No. Not that I can see. There'd be no return and the signal wouldn't make it "through" the external fx insert if that's what you're suggesting.

Like I said it's been in Nuendo forever. And is great for many obvious reasons, including simultaneously processing a stereo mix differently for different destinations. So it's not just a splitter/router...
Sure, I follow that about processing, but if we're talking about 'destinations' then we're saying the same thing. I'd still call it a split or copy and not a send (even if on a hardware mixing system we were using an Aux Send for sending the copy). Having it somehow, ITB would be good, but it would be an advanced hardware/software combination for a solution to a particular need. So, we're back to the high end Nuendo, etc. level I guess. :-)

Might Direct Routing and, perhaps, multiple passes let you arrive at the final Project versions you need? Does PT also permit that kind of output routing/splitting? If the competition has it, it might be something development would look at. Anyway, interesting concept. I'd put this into a feature request and see what kind of interest there is. :idea:
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by svennilenni » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:21 pm

Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:52 pm
Sure, I follow that about processing, but if we're talking about 'destinations' then we're saying the same thing. I'd still call it a split or copy and not a send
No matter what you call it, a splitt and a send are two different things.
digitalson wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:22 am
I'm pretty sure that you can use direct summing mode and use up to 8 additional destinations...let me know
But not for outputs.

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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Stephen57 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:24 pm

svennilenni wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:21 pm
Stephen57 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:52 pm
Sure, I follow that about processing, but if we're talking about 'destinations' then we're saying the same thing. I'd still call it a split or copy and not a send
No matter what you call it, a splitt and a send are two different things.
Which is what I said at the start. If it's an output, that takes a split or copy, Tracks, Groups and FX have sends. I do think it would be good to be able to take a split from an output and return it back to Cubase and is worth putting in a feature request for it. Using an output split as a send is a fine thing to ask for. Direct Routing is kind of like this, but not exactly the same, even if multiple destinations fire at once. And, always, so much depends on the hardware set-up and the kind of monitoring/playback system the material is for. Anyway, cool concept no matter what terms you prefer. Thanks for discussing it.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Raphie » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:47 am

if you look at the tiering of I/O in Cubase you have:

Audio Inputs > channel outputs (audio/instrument) > group channels > audio outputs
sends can be used on channels and groups
both channels and groups have an output too
If one needs splitting/parallel outputs one can use direct summing mode
Cubase outputs have NO sends or "output" as they are the final destination within the DAW
This is the concept / I/O framework of Cubase, it's not CIRCULAR
If you want to create (feedback(loops) you need to do that on the channel tier (audio, instrument, or group)
which you can do in several ways (send, external FX, or output routing)

the audio outs are a dead end in Cubase and should stay that way, Their purpose is the final sum / gateway out of the DAW.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:02 am

Raphie wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:47 am
if you look at the tiering of I/O in Cubase you have:

Audio Inputs > channel outputs (audio/instrument) > group channels > audio outputs
sends can be used on channels and groups
both channels and groups have an output too
If one needs splitting/parallel outputs one can use direct summing mode
Cubase outputs have NO sends or "output" as they are the final destination within the DAW
This is the concept / I/O framework of Cubase, it's not CIRCULAR
If you want to create (feedback(loops) you need to do that on the channel tier (audio, instrument, or group)
which you can do in several ways (send, external FX, or output routing)

the audio outs are a dead end in Cubase and should stay that way, Their purpose is the final sum / gateway out of the DAW.
Again, that's a pretty narrow view. (And you already said this more succinctly earlier in this thread.)

I guess Steinberg considers it a pro feature for their flagshiip Nuendo product only. It's been in Nuendo for years. It's very handy, if you are open to the possibilities. No one is talking about creating feedback loops, or anything circular at all for that matter. Just the ability to send from an output to another output to have parallel (or different) processing of the same mix going to more than one destination. In Nuendo it won't let you accidentally create feedback loops by "sending" to any destination that is routed to an output that would cause such a loop.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by digitalson » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:02 pm

I guess you can q Link all the tracks and use the direct summing it would be the same mix ,,, what about child busses? Or you can just assign a unused phone out to a different destination.
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Re: Sends on output channels

Post by Graveley » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:43 pm

digitalson wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:02 pm
I guess you can q Link all the tracks and use the direct summing it would be the same mix ,,, what about child busses? Or you can just assign a unused phone out to a different destination.
There's lots of room for error doing it that way. You'd have to send from only the tracks assigned to the stereo out, (not to groups etc) or you end up "double sending" etc. Not to mention having to do it again every time you add a new track.

Not sure why the resistance here? It's a powerful feature and it's in Neundo, so obviously they know how to implement it... They're just holding it back I suppose...
Last edited by Graveley on Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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