automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

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fredsky2003
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automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:26 pm

hello!
we are looking to go to Nuendo 8 for its awesome built-in ADR capabilities :D

okay now what we will save use a TREMENDOUS amount of time is the ability to automatically apply envelope when needed; comparing volume of 2 tracks (track1 = original movie, track 2= recorded voice). basic rule : when track2 is present then auto duck track1.
of course those "auto calculated envelope" MUST BE editable.

here is a video of how it is done via VAAST plugin into Vegas
http://vasstsoftware.com/product/voiceassistant/

any VST plugin for that?
or can i create a macro that check if original volume is over a certain thresold and draw an envelope point accordingly when a voice record is present - this will create a simple and editable duck.

or a way /shorcut to apply a "preset envelope" into the original track, that we will edit later ?

thanks,
fred

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fuzzydude » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:09 am

The tools you need are all a part of the Nuendo stock package. There are also plenty of other 3rd party VST tools that'll achieve what you're after.
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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:11 pm

hello fuzzy!
thanks for this positive answer.
however, since i'm a newbie to Nuendo, can you explain with details the "how to" and which tools ?
also have you some name for VST plugins?

thanks
fred

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by Fredo » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:48 pm

That's a basic ducker.
Any (multiband) compressor with sidechain functionality should do the job. Or a Dynamic EQ comp.

Fredo

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:02 pm

it is NOT a basic think, and NOT a simple sidechain, because - again - we need to get envelope to be created and editable inside Nuendo.
so a sidechain plugin like this one : http://www.db-audioware.com/sidechain-compressor, does the job in real time, but no envelope -> 100% useless.
i'm not even sure that a VST can directly manipulate Nuendo envelope, which basically mean that not a single VST can works.

so please reconsider my question :) which integrated tools can be used ? is there a manual about macro/API programming ?

fred

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:35 pm

I think you should re-think this. If you need to be able to edit the outcome of the process then you have other options.

1) Do what Fredo says and just automate the sidechain (send) when you need to "edit" the processing amount, or automate the parameters of the dynamics processor directly.

2) Don't be lazy and just automate all of it from the beginning.
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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:00 pm

What Mattias said...

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:05 pm

hello Matias!
when you say "automate" does it means : create the envelope and allow a manual edit after ? or you can only edit the parameters inside the sidechain GUI ?
because :
yes the sidechain duck is the effect we need at the very end
no a sidechain effect "in realtime" is not usefull, we again absolutely need a way to modify the envelope after they have been created - and sidechain does not create them isn't it ?
please review the video of the vaast plugin for vegas : it does everything exactly as neeeded.


beside, if we do all envelope manually -as today - it seem that contrary to Cubase, Nuendo doesn't have Preset for volume envelope ?
https://steinberg.help/nuendo/v8/en/cub ... _editors_r

is there a shorcut to add an envelope to a voice file (we have many short wav files on a dedicated track) ?


the only (complex) way i guess that will work is :
- export from Nuendo the ADR project as AAF (audio only)
- import AAF audio into Vegas
-- in vegas, use VAAST voice assit plugin
-- export AAF from vegas
- import this AAF - which now got all envelope ready to be edited - back to Nuendo


if ONLY there is a way to do the VAAST voice assit job directly into Nuendo it will be awesome!

fred

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:25 pm

okay i think i got what Mattias said in 1)
they are automation curves that can be edited after
https://steinberg.help/nuendo/v8/en/cub ... ves_c.html

so basically the sidechain parameters are recorded as "curves" in a special track, and then can be adjusted manually later. okay but instead of working directly with the volume envelope you play with the sidechain parameters - i guess that's too much different "philosophy" for our technicians ...

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:30 pm

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:28 pm

okay so very good, i got the sidechain thing working, thanks to this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIt5xWsfg9A

so after talking to technicians, we should proceed like this:
- first step : use the sidechain so EACH time there is sound on the recorded voice track it kick in the compressor on the main track audio volume :)
- second step : in the case of the previous step is not enough, use manually envelope with preset.

okay my last issue is about envelope on the main/movie track :
- since this is a single long track, i have to :
a) select the ADR tcin and tcout (markers are imported via CSV file) - what is automatically selected is a section of the "text dialogue" track
b) cut or split or... do something to select on the audio movie track the same tcin and tcout (so there is a need to select other track, and then split)
c) F7 to direct offline processing and ONLY apply an envelope on this part of the movie

at the very end the audio movie track is split many times, with different envelope on each.

how to do step b ?

thanks,
fred

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:51 am

Maybe I'm missing something, but if you're going to double-check every time the compressor is ducking the non-dialog audio, why not just manually automate it to begin with? I always thought automatic ducking was done to save time and then people would just live with any imperfections.

To me this just seems like jumping through hoops in order to save too little time compared to just "doing it right" from the beginning.....
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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by fredsky2003 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm

hey Mattias :)
you're right, please explain in details how to do the automation thing - because i don't know at all how to automate thing.

bad side of envelope :
- the envelope apply to the whole program/non-dialogue WAV + not possible to have value in dB
(i'm talking here into the F7 then envelope tool) -> useless

another way : playing with volume. we can "draw" it with the pen tool, and even have a dedicated "volume track". the values are in dB, in the upper toolbar.
here it is what we have done so far with Nuendo:
nuendo_volume.png
(27.35 KiB) Not downloaded yet

here is what we want to achieve (this what wo do actually with Pyramix) :
Capture vd pyramix.PNG
(23.21 KiB) Not downloaded yet

is there a way to automate the drawing of the volume curve? ideal workflow would be :
- select a wav on track green = narrateur
- use a shorcut (or more if we can choose presets)
- this will automatically draw a curve at in between TCin and TCout, so that the blue track will be ducked - only on this section.


fred

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:07 pm

Eh... It is the same thing you do in pyramix. In Nuendo you just don't see the volume line on top of audio event but under it. Just like in your nuendo volume png... That is automation "Thing"... You can do that to all kinds of things other than volume also... Send, eqs etc...

Or I have misunderstood something totally.
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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:41 pm

You can of course do this also with clip gain.
1. use range selection tool to select desired lenght on the programme track,
2. Split range (you find this function in the edit menu under range)
3. select the splitted range with object selection tool
4. lower the clip gain as desired (either in the info line or via key command)
5. Make crossfades

I have key commands for all these steps so not that hard to achieve...

But you can do this the easy way also but ducking sidechain compressor ;)
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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by keveng » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:04 pm

The automation is working great for what we are trying to do, but we wanted to know if there is a more accurate way to create the points for the automation (as we are doing with Pyramix currently).
In PMX, we type a value in dB, and all the points of the fade are created (as an envelope punch).
We are looking to do the exact same thing in Nuendo for the volume automation.

We will be using sidechain compression too, but there are some cases where we want to be able to modify the gain in a specific way.
This is why we want to be able to do both. In our case, splitting the initial file (on the first track) is not an efficient option as it will complicate some changes later.

Thanks for your help!
Kev

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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by Proabe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:46 pm

sure, a similar method (like MAUTOVolume) could solve the constant difference of events after ADR, when you have to twist the handle of the microphone amplifier when recording takes, after which the tracks of the actors differ. it is clear that there are many ways to align events of one actor (and the actors' track with each other) manually or with the help of a plugin in an insert.
But it is extremely uncomfortable and long (given the duration of the entire film). It would be great if all the tracks were automatically assigned to one audio denominator by volume and prescribed it in the path of the actuation of the track
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Re: automatic envelope voice tool for ADR

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:56 pm

fredsky2003 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm
hey Mattias :)
you're right, please explain in details how to do the automation thing - because i don't know at all how to automate thing.
I'm just talking about regular automation. Start playback with the "programme" track in automation write touch mode. When you reach a point where you have your "narrateur" just lower the fader. Automation will be written. When you reach the end of narration release the fader. Track will 'punch out' of automation write and return to 0dB gain change.

What I meant was that if you're going to use the mouse to pencil these things in, and then double-check that they sound good by playing back your pencil-written automation, you might as well just automate it "manually" from the beginning, because you're not going to save much time using the the mouse.
fredsky2003 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm
bad side of envelope :
- the envelope apply to the whole program/non-dialogue WAV + not possible to have value in dB
(i'm talking here into the F7 then envelope tool) -> useless

another way : playing with volume. we can "draw" it with the pen tool, and even have a dedicated "volume track". the values are in dB, in the upper toolbar.
I generally don't like people looking at changes like these using absolute values (dB). Far too often there are slight differences in the program material meaning that just because you lowered it by XdB last time doesn't mean that will be appropriate this time. Since you have to check it by ear to verify it still works you might as well mix by ear to begin with.

But fair enough, here's another way for you to get it done:

1. Place your program track in automation write
2. Set your fill option in the automation panel to "loop" (or range... I forget)
3. Set your automation to 'preview'
4. outline the range/loop above the narration audio, on the program track
5. lower the fader in the inspector and look at the gain change below the fader
6. Punch out on the automation panel

This way you should be able to punch one value over the fill range/loop and you'll be able to see this value as you change the fader - or you can double-click on the value and type it in. As soon as you press "enter" the punch option should become available. You could even do this while playing back if you choose "latch" - because either when you stop or punch out manually it will write level change to the section you selected, the loop range.

Also, since this involves changing the automation parameters you can create a macro that does that for you. I have a macro that engages cycle, selects preview, selects fill to loop, and then starts playback. One key only. Very quick.
fredsky2003 wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm
is there a way to automate the drawing of the volume curve? ideal workflow would be :
- select a wav on track green = narrateur
- use a shorcut (or more if we can choose presets)
- this will automatically draw a curve at in between TCin and TCout, so that the blue track will be ducked - only on this section.


fred
Only way I can think of to do that is if you can recall a punch from the punch list and have it fill to loop. You could possibly create a macro for it.
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