Quartertone

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Muhamedali
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Quartertone

Post by Muhamedali » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:20 pm

Can you make somehow or does any feature/plugin in Cubase 9.5 make quartertones or microtuning option like in Kontak 5?

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Re: Quartertone

Post by shanabit » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:13 pm

Midi Plugins has a MIcrotuner if thats what you are looking for
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Re: Quartertone

Post by -steve- » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:16 pm

The Cubase microtuner does work with certain plugins like Steinberg multitimbral instruments and a handful of certain other VSTs.

In my experience,it works with very few plugins that I use, so I just find ways to use CCs to control tuning, and find myself not using any Steinberg VSTs for maqam music.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by shanabit » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:17 pm

-steve- wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:16 pm
The Cubase microtuner does work with certain plugins like Steinberg multitimbral instruments and a handful of certain other VSTs.

In my experience,it works with very few plugins that I use, so I just find ways to use CCs to control tuning, and find myself not using any Steinberg VSTs for maqam music.
That does seem easier to do
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Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by Qiujan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:29 pm

Hello

Sorry to ask for this here, but i realy couldnt find anything by googling.

Is it possible to do quartertones, like needed for arabic/turkish/persian music, in cubase (i am speaking about intervalls, not rhythm)? I am looking for a general setting to change it in a way that already some midi-notes (like played from a keyboard) are quartertones. i know i could do it through very complicated automatisation and pitchbend, but thats too complicated.

is it possible to do that?

thx

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Re: Quartertone

Post by Qiujan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:33 pm

how can u tune with CCs? can someone explain that a bit more? i would be very happy :-)

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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by -steve- » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:46 pm

If you are using the built in Halion Sonic SE, or the Halion and Halion Sonic retail versions, you can use the microtuner MIDI insert. https://steinberg.help/cubase_nuendo_pl ... ner_r.html
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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by Qiujan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:09 pm

thx for the answer

so the microtuner only works with Halion? i cant use it on any other vst or hardware synth?
thats a pitty, it would be great...

and isnt there any other way? like to change something about the basic midi-settings so i could influence the whole keyboard? i mean, all the notes which i can play on the keyboard like in the midi-editor, are set to controll a certain pitchfrequency, no? cant i change that somehow? or some CC setting or so?

if its not possible, it would be a great feature for future versions...

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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by -steve- » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:18 pm

Qiujan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:09 pm
i mean, all the notes which i can play on the keyboard like in the midi-editor, are set to controll a certain pitchfrequency, no?
No, actually. Midi notes played in a DAW are actually commands that are sent to the synth. The don't contain pitch info, rather they are commands that tell the synth to "play note #60 with velocity of 84" and "Stop note 60". It's up to the synth to interpret what that means.

The MIDI specification, which pretty much all modern synths accommodate, only provides one way to change the pitch of a given note- pitchbend. The problem with it is that it affects everything on the channel. I think this is why this type of pitch manipulation has been the domain of the VST plugin rather than the DAW. Every company has their own way to do it, and there is a problem getting competing companies to agree to use the same exact method. This will never happen, imo.

Some VSTs, like Kontakt, provide tools for this, and you can set up a maqam, save it as a preset, then recall it using a CC or, using Expression Maps in Cubase. So you can have say, an expression map slot that called 'rast' which sends a CC to Kontakt to modulate.

One solution is to have two (or more) instances of the same VST on a track, assiging them to different channels. Then one is used for microtones, and the other for un-repitched notes. and you can use Note Expression in Cubase for this. The drawback is you have to still make sure both channels play the same articulation when the note plays, so you don't have the sika note in a pizz section suddenly play arco, for example. So I gave up on using that method, and do it in the plugin.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by Stephen57 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:50 pm

Qiujan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:33 pm
how can u tune with CCs? can someone explain that a bit more? i would be very happy :-)
I'm assuming that would be done with Pitch Bend and, perhaps, Note Expression to draw the line. You'd still have to tune by ear, so getting an exact quarter tone might be a bit challenging. Good luck.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by -steve- » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:09 pm

Stephen57 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:50 pm
I'm assuming that would be done with Pitch Bend and, perhaps, Note Expression to draw the line. You'd still have to tune by ear, so getting an exact quarter tone might be a bit challenging. Good luck.
Actually, pitchbend is problematic, because if notes overlap they all get retuned.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by Stephen57 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:51 pm

Stephen57 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:50 pm
I'm assuming that would be done with Pitch Bend and, perhaps, Note Expression to draw the line. You'd still have to tune by ear, so getting an exact quarter tone might be a bit challenging. Good luck.
Actually, pitchbend is problematic, because if notes overlap they all get retuned.

I hardly ever use them, but if I do, I go to my have my old Yahama DX with built-in Quarter Tone and other such scales. For me, that's the best way (and only :-( ) way I'd be able to attempt something with non-standard scales. Some of the big instruments, VEP, etc, must provide scales and tunings? I'll ask the net about that. There is a good, free DX I just got, it may have scales. Not sure. Just d/ed it. I'd nice, I'll post about it in the Lounge.
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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by Stephen57 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:03 pm

-steve- wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:18 pm
Qiujan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:09 pm
i mean, all the notes which i can play on the keyboard like in the midi-editor, are set to controll a certain pitchfrequency, no?
No, actually. Midi notes played in a DAW are actually commands that are sent to the synth. The don't contain pitch info, rather they are commands that tell the synth to "play note #60 with velocity of 84" and "Stop note 60". It's up to the synth to interpret what that means.

[...]
Some VSTs, like Kontakt, provide tools for this, and you can set up a maqam, save it as a preset, then recall it using a CC or, using Expression Maps in Cubase. So you can have say, an expression map slot that called 'rast' which sends a CC to Kontakt to modulate.
[...]
All great stuff, Steve, but "set up a magam" -- I had to look it up. I've never tried that, but it's a great concept. Makes me want to try it. I was listening to "The Band's Visit" recently and have many other favorites in various world music genres. Thank you.
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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by -steve- » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:21 pm

Maqam refers to modal systems used in music in the so-called Middle East: The Levant, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, North Africa and Central Asia.

Check out http://maqamworld.com/ it's a good resource for learning about it.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by Vadim Kupriyanov » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:45 pm

Using of Cubase microtuner is not enough, because you need a 24 parts in octave, but microtuner can handle only 12..
You can use any quantity of parts in octave by using 3-party tuning software, like LMSO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qCBYr_ ... KYvrw&t=0s

For Kontakt instruments you can use a special tuning script, http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6402157

Or you can to build own tuning patch in Plogue Bidule or Max/MSP. But for some on-kontakt instruments, like VSL, if you want to have more then 12 steps/oct, you need to have as many instances of instrument, as many notes you plan to use in a poliphony (for polyphonic pitch shift). For example, you need 3 ViPro with loaded same cello instrument for play microtonal triads, and even 6 instances for legato transitions between triads.
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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by Stephen57 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:07 pm

-steve- wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:21 pm
Maqam refers to modal systems used in music in the so-called Middle East: The Levant, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, North Africa and Central Asia.

Check out http://maqamworld.com/ it's a good resource for learning about it.
Great link. I'm familiar with and like the music from the Lavant. I never thought about creating it in the ways you were discussing in the previous post.

Great stuff. :-)
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DAW: Cubase Pro 10 (Main), Cubase Pro 9.5 (Backup); PC: HP Z230, i5 CPU quad-core 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gigs RAM; OS: Win 7 Pro 64-bit; Audio Converters, Scarlett 2I4, Zoom UCR-8; USB MIDI Controller, Akai Advance 49. VST-Is: Spectrasonics Omnisphere 2.5, Stylus RMX; Air Music: Hybrid, Transfuser 2, Vacuum Pro, Velvet, Xpand2; Novation: Bass Station; Sonovox Grand Piano; Rack: Proteus 2000, Korg 03R/W, Yamaha TG 33. Monitoring with KRK Rokit 8/G3, Tannoy PBM 6.5 II, Mics. Scheops, Sennheiser, Rode, Lectrosonics RF, etc.

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Re: Quartertone

Post by Stephen57 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:16 pm

Vadim Kupriyanov wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:45 pm
Using of Cubase microtuner is not enough, because you need a 24 parts in octave, but microtuner can handle only 12..
You can use any quantity of parts in octave by using 3-party tuning software, like LMSO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qCBYr_ ... KYvrw&t=0s

For Kontakt instruments you can use a special tuning script, http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6402157

Or you can to build own tuning patch in Plogue Bidule or Max/MSP. But for some on-kontakt instruments, like VSL, if you want to have more then 12 steps/oct, you need to have as many instances of instrument, as many notes you plan to use in a poliphony (for polyphonic pitch shift). For example, you need 3 ViPro with loaded same cello instrument for play microtonal triads, and even 6 instances for legato transitions between triads.
Very cool sounds, thanks. Was that track ever mixed and mastered in a more full up version?

I flash-skimmed the thread on this at the KVR. Looks complex but if there's that much attention on this, it seems likely the OP can find some way to really do this -- just not so easily as might have been hoped for.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by Stephen57 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:18 pm

Do the "big" full versions of the Steinberg Instruments include alternate scales and tunings? If no then why the "flower" not? :-) heh
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Re: Quartertone

Post by -steve- » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:47 pm

Halion is completely tuneable, and also comes with instruments with it built in.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by Stephen57 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:36 am

-steve- wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:47 pm
Halion is completely tuneable, and also comes with instruments with it built in.
Turnable is good, but what about Tuning Sets? Yamaha DX keyboards, for example, provided multiple tuning systems -- quarter tone, either tone, various tempered and non-tempered tuning types, Just Intonation and a bunch of others. That's more what I was wondering about. If this isn't there, I'd put it in the suggestion box to make more programmers perish. :-)

Anyway, glad to hear the tuning capability is there.
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Re: Quartertones (microtuning)

Post by chikitin » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:40 pm

-steve- wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:18 pm
Qiujan wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:09 pm
i mean, all the notes which i can play on the keyboard like in the midi-editor, are set to controll a certain pitchfrequency, no?
No, actually. Midi notes played in a DAW are actually commands that are sent to the synth. The don't contain pitch info, rather they are commands that tell the synth to "play note #60 with velocity of 84" and "Stop note 60". It's up to the synth to interpret what that means.

The MIDI specification, which pretty much all modern synths accommodate, only provides one way to change the pitch of a given note- pitchbend. The problem with it is that it affects everything on the channel. I think this is why this type of pitch manipulation has been the domain of the VST plugin rather than the DAW. Every company has their own way to do it, and there is a problem getting competing companies to agree to use the same exact method. This will never happen, imo.

Some VSTs, like Kontakt, provide tools for this, and you can set up a maqam, save it as a preset, then recall it using a CC or, using Expression Maps in Cubase. So you can have say, an expression map slot that called 'rast' which sends a CC to Kontakt to modulate.

One solution is to have two (or more) instances of the same VST on a track, assiging them to different channels. Then one is used for microtones, and the other for un-repitched notes. and you can use Note Expression in Cubase for this. The drawback is you have to still make sure both channels play the same articulation when the note plays, so you don't have the sika note in a pizz section suddenly play arco, for example. So I gave up on using that method, and do it in the plugin.
Hi Steve,

Do you know any workaround to display qurtertone accidentals and/or key signature with quarter tone symbols in Score Editor?

Thank you in advance.

CS
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Re: Quartertone

Post by -steve- » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:50 pm

Two ways that I can think of right now.

Create an Expression Map articulation. Set the font to one with microtone accidentals (or any character, frankly).

Create a user symbol.

If you use an Expression Map, you can also send a midi message to adjust the pitch. Which midi message to use will depend on the VST or synth involved.
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Re: Quartertone

Post by chikitin » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:56 am

-steve- wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:50 pm
Two ways that I can think of right now.

Create an Expression Map articulation. Set the font to one with microtone accidentals (or any character, frankly).

Create a user symbol.

If you use an Expression Map, you can also send a midi message to adjust the pitch. Which midi message to use will depend on the VST or synth involved.
Thank you Steve. However, my use symbols are note listed among the choices available. I have a specific font ( Persian Music ) https://www.4shared.com/photo/vcK-p-Tz/actual_size.html that I'd like to use. I don't think it is even in the unicode character set.
Laptop: iMac, 16GB RAM SSD 2TB, Cubase Pro 10.5.5 on Mojave, the latest w/ two external Monitors
NI Komplete 5, EWQLSO,HSO, GA 5
Synths: Yamaha PSR-A3000, Roland Fantom XR
Interface: Steinberg MR-816CSX
Effects: Rocktron DSP, Lexicon MPX 550
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Re: Quartertone

Post by chikitin » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:47 am

Hi Again Steve,

I followed your approach. But I guess I am doing something wrong. Would you please take a look at my project and see that is the wrong? I doesn't play notes except the last notes. It seems it is switching to different channel on the HSO ( loaded on Halion Sonic SE). I have the output of the mappings to program to 2 and 3 ( corresponding to each channel with pitch bends).

Here is my .cpr project. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RWOkIM ... sp=sharing

Thank you very much in advance.
Laptop: iMac, 16GB RAM SSD 2TB, Cubase Pro 10.5.5 on Mojave, the latest w/ two external Monitors
NI Komplete 5, EWQLSO,HSO, GA 5
Synths: Yamaha PSR-A3000, Roland Fantom XR
Interface: Steinberg MR-816CSX
Effects: Rocktron DSP, Lexicon MPX 550
Controller: Steinberg CC121, Yamaha KX25,49,88, Korg Nano Kontrol, Boss RC 300, Yamaha MFC 10

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