audio delay compared with plugin display

All topics on WaveLab 9 and WaveLab Elements 9
User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

With WL9.0.25 on OS X 10.10.5 I get considerable delays between audio signals and the displays in the plugins of the master chain...

It depends not on plugin (tested with FF,Izotope and steinberg).
Even the build-in meterings are always too early compared with audio signal.

If I use buffer size of 32 samples it is minimal but buffer sizes of 2048 samples generates a delay of approx 200-400 ms.

I tested with cubase 8.5: no delay!
I tested with Logic and SO3: no delay!

Has anybody similar experiences? Or has a solution for that effect.

WL should not worry about this huge buffersizes and simply take into account the plugin latencies; should be the core function for WL...

I use the Focusrite 18i20 with current driver (1.8).
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

Some search in old forums told me that the effect runs under "latency or delay compensation for plugins".

I had to notice that since 2013/2014 this is a big problem in WL!

PG insists that there IS a delay compensation for plugins but nobody can see this!

If you load a testfile that has every half a second a puls you can see this rather clearly.

Choose buffer size 32 and buffer size 2048 and compare: the metering runs up to half a second before the audio with a buffer of 2048..

As I said, nor cubase neither logic and SO3 suffers from this kind of error.

Better to repair this kind of error. No further cosmetics on the GUI and do not pump bells and whistles into this tool.
With this size of latency between audio and metering WL is more a toy than a tool :-(
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

stingray
Senior Member
Posts: 1238
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:55 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by stingray »

I see the same here. This is probably a known issue. It would be good to see a fix for this.

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

Is this specifically related to plugins? I seem to remember delays in metering vs sound in Wavelab 8 on Windows with no plugins (on track meters I think), but haven't really looked in Wavelab 9. Does it make any difference if you change the buffers in Wavelab or in the interface?

User avatar
toader
Member
Posts: 953
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:37 am
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by toader »

I have noticed the same problem here as well...
Computer 1: Cubase 10.5.12, RME HDSPe AES (x2), RME HDSPe AIO (x1), Nvidia NVS 510 video card, Dell T7500 workstation with Intel Xeon X5690 (6 cores with hyperthreading) 3.47gHz, 24GB RAM, UAD-2 Quad, Windows 10 64-bit
Computer 2: Wavelab 10.0.30, RME HDSPe AIO, AMD Radeon RX 480 video, Dell XPS 8720 with Intel I7-7700 CPU (4 cores with hyperthreading) 3.6gHz, 24GB RAM, Windows 10 64-bit

Todd Loomis @ https://noiseradiationstudios.com

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

cheveyo wrote:Choose buffer size 32 and buffer size 2048 and compare: the metering runs up to half a second before the audio with a buffer of 2048.

Couldn't remember seeing exactly what you were talking about, but you're right. It does it with the Steinberg Brickwall.

PG
Moderator
Posts: 8085
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by PG »

It you have a plugin with meters followed with a plugin with latency, the 1st plugin does not know this latency. Hence its meters are ahead. Is it what you describe?
Philippe

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

All what is seen is already discussed in an old discussion.

See http://japan.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45144

It is not only the metering of the plugins. It is also the metering of the integrated WL tools.

More buffer, more delay. Up to half a second delay between gui and audio signal.

@bob99: the mentioned buffer sizes are for my interface. you may have another kind of buffer setup controlling the latency (maybe not in samples but in ms).

We have seen so many changes in GUI since 2013/14, why not working simply on fixing that bug?
Don't you think it's crucial for that kind of software?
What about a car where the fourth wheel is always spinning of...?

Perhaps the cubase staff has some hints to solve this. Must be a way to solve this bug, others DAW do not have this.
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by mr.roos »

Why do you think this is a WL software problem and not an interface problem? My Mackie interface is set to 512 samples and I am not experiencing the problem you describe. The response of the audio and the WL meters is immediate. Here's my chain: Master rig on, no efx, GUI onscreen> Waves LinMB on and GUI onscreen>Waves SSLComp on and GUI onscreen>Ozone 7 on final insert running Vintage Tape and the iZotope ditherer on and GUI onscreen.

I can post a video clip on youtube if you want.
Cubase 11 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

mr.roos wrote:Why do you think this is a WL software problem and not an interface problem? My Mackie interface is set to 512 samples and I am not experiencing the problem you describe..
Go higher than 512 in the Wavelab buffer settings, 2048 or higher as described in the first post, and you should see the issue I think.
I've had to go there and higher at times when using very high sample rates, so it's not unheard of.
Last edited by bob99 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

PG wrote:It you have a plugin with meters followed with a plugin with latency, the 1st plugin does not know this latency. Hence its meters are ahead. Is it what you describe?
I'm only using one plugin, the Steinberg Brickwall Limiter in the Master Section, and I see the issue with Wavelab buffer settings over about 2048. I haven't tried it in other programs like Cheveyo has but they said it doesn't happen in Cubase with changing buffer settings.

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by mr.roos »

Bob, wait a sec. My external interface has it's own sample rate setting and that is set to 512. Within WLE9 there are buffer settings (stock settings/default) of 16 and then a MME Specific Buffer Size window that is greyed out at 16384. I have not changed the settings in WL9.

Why in the world would I want to INCREASE the buffer number in WL when it works perfectly? And seriously, if the OP has done this to solve some latency issues and met with failure - then this is not the solution or the cause.

Yes, I am puzzled by the OP's problems because I have a pretty minimal PC vs. his new Mac and do not experience what he is experiencing. To my way of thinking, the buffer size of the external interface is important in his case - yet he doesn't mention this number. Is he USB, Firewire? In Cubase, where he says he has no problems, there is only the option for setting the external interface's sample rate, nothing to change the Cubase software buffer number. To be honest, I am not clear why PG has included this option in WL because the default setting is working perfectly. I've never heard it explained why this is an option in WL9. What problems might it solve, I have no idea. Do you? Do you work with settings different than the default?
Cubase 11 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

mr.roos wrote:In Cubase, where he says he has no problems, there is only the option for setting the external interface's sample rate, nothing to change the Cubase software buffer number.
Thanks Mr. Roos, didn't know there weren't buffer settings in Cubase.

Cheveyo, are there buffer settings in Studio One and Logic, besides those on the interface?

But even if there aren't, it still seems something odd in Wavelab if this topic has come up before, and this happens using just one plugin with the available high buffer settings. I know I've noticed it under working circumstances before, but didn't note all the conditions at the time.
Last edited by bob99 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

@mr.ross: don't confuse Mac and PC. On a Mac you have to setup buffer size for latency in the DAW (in OS X the audio engine is integrated part of the OS) on a PC you have a possibility to adjust the buffer size on the Interface program.
Not much difference in effect.

The OP of the "first" discussion in 2013 was on a Win7 system. I'm on OS X. Both with different interfaces.

Both have the same problem.

For me it seems that the latency compensation is NOT working right!

@mr.ross: if you see not the necessity to enlarge the buffer size for you, believe me: there are good reasons to do so when you are working with several plugins! And I think it's crucial for a sound editor program to handle the latencies of plugins correct.

In Logic and SO3 I was using the same plugins (on Logic the AU and not the VST version, but on Cubase the VST versions) and none of them have this problem. It's probably NOT the error of the plugins.
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by mr.roos »

cheveyo, OK, I will now think that your interface sample rate is Mac determined as it is plugged in - ha, something I do not have. Most multi channel interfaces have independent drivers to communicate with the computer. When this is not the case, it means there is only a stereo pair in and out. Is this what you have there?

Moving on, I do appreciate that you are having a problem, don't misunderstand. My suggestions are made because I have at times experienced weird behaviors within recording software and had to figure things out on my own. Not to say that this forum has not been very helpful at times! :) Sometimes you have to consider the total user community when you start to think that you have found a general flaw. Your problem seems to be shared by maybe ten ppl represented here - that's not a large amount of ppl considering how many ppl use WL. More to the point, my point, what are the other ppl NOT having problems doing that allows them to experience trouble free operation?

OK, so three questions: #1, do you run your OS on an SSD, and #2, does your computer access the WL program and the plugins from an internal HD or and external HD? #3, how does your external interface connect to your computer? My answers are: Yes, internal SSD HD, and Firewire. I ask these questions because many times I read posts here where someone is experiencing problems and I come to find out they are using a laptop with external HDs and USB connected interfaces, or even built in computer interfaces. Now sometimes this can work for ppl, it happens, but sometimes it does work but not very well. One last question, have you run the DPC Latency checker on your DAW?
Cubase 11 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by mr.roos »

cheveyo, I also see this on the Focusrite site: see attachment.

Are you running Gen2 or Gen 1? Different drivers but I wouldn't understand if this would make a difference. Where do you have the buffer sample set in this Preference window pictured below? Have you tried increasing this and decreasing this and leaving WL at it's stock settings - 16/16384?
Attachments
Capture.PNG
Screen shot of a Mac showing Buffer size.
(186.44 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Cubase 11 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

Hi mr.roos,

thanks for the research.
The screenshot you posted is for Ableton Live Lite Software for those people that have no DAW on their computers installed, so they are able to configure the interface. As I said you set the buffer from inside a DAW.

I have WL and some others DAWs on my Computer but NOT Ableton Live Lite ;-)
So this doesn't help...

(Each audio device has one buffer so if you select the audio device and set the buffer size it is set.
From each DAW you can set a different value for your device but it is just ONE device.
You simply select this device with different buffer sizes...). I don't think that it is a WL specific buffer as you said but perhaps only PG can answer this. I think this buffer size is simply a transparent way to the device buffer size...

I suppose that a lot of people will realize this misbehavior when they are looking for....
I don't think that only ten people have this effect.

Did you try to enlarge the buffer (to max value!) and then see if metering and audio is in sync for you?

You can work with this error without realizing it. But once you realized it it is really annoying ;-)

This also should not be confused with standard latency of the interface.
Here the latency means the consuming time of a plugin. Same word but probably another field of programming...
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

For me the effect is present even without a plugin in the master section.

Simply enlarge the buffer to max and watch the WL metering (spectrum or peak or whatever)...
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by mr.roos »

cheveyo, I am not sure that you have this diver thing sorted. Here's two screen shots. If you have Cubase and WL you have to have the same options. Right?
Attachments
Capture 3.PNG
From Cubase
(200.42 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Capture 2.PNG
From WL
(137.01 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Cubase 11 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

I don't think that they must be the same.

You can use Cubase with 512 and you can use WL with 1024 or whatever is possible.
Try to set the WL on the max value and try...
Then set the Cubase on the max value and try...
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

I changed the audio device to integrated audio device and the problem is reproduced.

So it seems to me that this is not a problem with the audio interface.
Because no plugin is loaded it seems to be no problem with the plugin latency.
Because the effect was reported for win7 it seems to be no OS specific problem.

PG??

Try this:
1) Enlarge the buffer size for the selected audio device (to max).
2) Load a sound file with clear transients in a range of 1 or 2 seconds (or build an appropriate sound file)
3) Load NO plugins into the master section
4) Play, listen and look.

Are the WL meterings (spectrum, loudness, etc.) in sync with the sound?

For me the meterings are clearly ahead of the sound...
The smaller the buffer size the better it looks.
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

User avatar
mr.roos
Senior Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by mr.roos »

cheveyo, OK, I do understand what you are wanting me to do, of course. But I hope you understand that there is no point to me doing this - my DAW works fine running WL or Cubase. You understand this right?

So let's take another look at this please. Your setup has a problem, whether it's WL or your computer, that's what we need to find out. First off, I think you are confused about the buffer and sample rate setting on your DAW's interface and it's programs. You do know that what every DAW wants is ZERO latency and ZERO buffer settings and ZERO driver sample rates? We can't have it but this has always been the goal, ALWAYS. So, can you see where I would hesitate to follow your path and increase the sample rate and buffer size when it is something I know to be nothing I want for my DAW? Ha, I hope so. From every angle I look at what you are doing and my brain says 'NOooo!' Do you see this?

I think you have a driver that controls your Focusrite interface and yet you don't think you do. I think you should set your WL to it's default settings,16/16384 and find the Focusrite's Driver settings box and change those settings. Change it to try 512, then 1028 or higher and see if you have the same problem in WL - BUT DO NOT CHANGE THE DEFAULT SETTINGS IN WL. There's no reason to do this, and, in fact, it is counter to the goal you seek.

BTW, do you realize how large a number 16,384 is? This is HUGE!! Dig around, find that driver window for the Focusrite device.
Cubase 11 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 10, Groove Agent 5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (2004 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), 1K iRig Pads, StudioLogic Numa Compact 2X 88-Key, and Roland FP-30.

User avatar
cheveyo
Junior Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:07 pm
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by cheveyo »

Thank you for your efforts mr.roos and good luck.
--
iMac Retina 5k (OSX10.14),
Cubase from Atari to 10.0.x, Wavelab from 5 to 9.5, StudioOne from 3.1 to 4.x, LogicProX 10.x
Notion 6, Sibelius 7.5, Guitar Pro 7, Dorico from 1.0 to 3
Scarlett 18i20, Line6-Helix

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

cheveyo wrote:Try this:
1) Enlarge the buffer size for the selected audio device (to max).
2) Load a sound file with clear transients in a range of 1 or 2 seconds (or build an appropriate sound file)
3) Load NO plugins into the master section
4) Play, listen and look.
Are the WL meterings (spectrum, loudness, etc.) in sync with the sound?.
Yes, I'm starting to notice this in more places too with greater buffer sizes.
No plugins at all. 44.1 clip with very sharp start attack on montage track. Start play from before the clip. The Master Section meters and Level meter are a good 300ms ahead of the clip with one of my needed settings.

The track meters in the montage are in correct time though. On Windows 7.

bob99
Senior Member
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: audio delay compared with plugin display

Post by bob99 »

However, I just tried this in Reaper, increasing the buffers there (because you can). And I get the same problem: Pre-metering. So I guess if it's wrong and a bug in Wavelab it's wrong and a bug in Reaper too.

Maybe there's some compensation in Reaper you can do, but I wouldn't know where to find it.
Last edited by bob99 on Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply

Return to “WaveLab Pro 9 | WaveLab Elements 9”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests