AAF production sound relink

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Mike S
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AAF production sound relink

Post by Mike S »

Hello,

Can N10 load an AAF (no embedded audio) an link up to the production audio files? As in Pro Tools.

cheers,

Mike
Mike
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ErikG
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by ErikG »

Yes using Field Recorder Audio Import.
Like PT Field recorder workflow, It Depends on getting files with actual and correct metadata from the NLE. Some NLEs are not so good with that.

BUT unlike PTs system there are ways to relink only using file names and description and limited data like duration. So linking problematic files is easier than in PT. However it will take a little to get to understand.
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Mike S
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by Mike S »

Thanks Erik, will investigate.
Mike
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koedfilms
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by koedfilms »

I"m having trouble playing the audio in preview mode. I hit the spacebar and the time line plays audio fine, but when I go to the preview on the take I want to replace in the poly file it won't play back.... neither will the original file in the "field recorder audio folders. please help

HenkSPOOK
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by HenkSPOOK »

But unlike in PT it seems impossible to do this only on the basis of timecode. So when editors work with the audio from the camera there is no similar metadata between the audio in the aaf (camera audio) and the production audio from the field recorder. I would really appreciate a proper implementation of importing field recorder audio only on the basis of similar timecode stretches.

romainhc
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by romainhc »

If anybody has a working workflow to handle a conformation with production sound from an AVID editing .... it would be great.
As I wrote in a precedent topic, when using an AAF from an Avid, Nuendo don't recognize the "origin time" (source timecode). And we can't reconnect and synchronize the production soundfiles as we loose the only reference available (source TC + tape n° or shooting date).

I thought maybe an EDL would transfer the "origin time" to Nuendo .... does anybody tried it ?
Because I made a test today, with a CMX3600 EDL generated from Avid, and Nuendo 10.3 said the file couldn't be read.

I talked to the AATranslator developper and send him an AAF test file from Avid ... and he told me he don't know why Protools recognize the source TC in the AAF and why Nuendo doesn't. He told me he thought there would be a "magic trick" from Avid in the AAF to handle the process between Avid and Protools...

Thx !!!
Romain Huonnic - Sound editor
http://www.label42.com/en/

ErikG
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by ErikG »

The avid AAF export needs to export using copy all media (not using handles) then the audio sync will work.
Nuendo can’t handle mxf metadata at this time. This means that you have to rely on naming schemes and descriptions to link the files up. It works pretty well, but is not at all as efficient as using actual metadata.
Filmlance, a Swedish production company producing drama and feature films.
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kamilsaj
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by kamilsaj »

romainhc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:02 pm

I thought maybe an EDL would transfer the "origin time" to Nuendo .... does anybody tried it ?
Because I made a test today, with a CMX3600 EDL generated from Avid, and Nuendo 10.3 said the file couldn't be read.
Hi,
nuendo reconform can read cmx3600 if you import it to reconform as change EDL ("+" at bottom part of the screen)

my method is:
1.import production audio
2. use "move to origin" from edit
3. reconform production audio using EDL
4. import AAF from AVID to check sync and get whatever they added in video edit

hope this helps,
kamil

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Fredo
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by Fredo »

Another confirmation that a CMX3600 from Media Composer imports correctly into Nuendo.

Fredo

romainhc
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by romainhc »

kamilsaj wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:57 am
romainhc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:02 pm

I thought maybe an EDL would transfer the "origin time" to Nuendo .... does anybody tried it ?
Because I made a test today, with a CMX3600 EDL generated from Avid, and Nuendo 10.3 said the file couldn't be read.
Hi,
nuendo reconform can read cmx3600 if you import it to reconform as change EDL ("+" at bottom part of the screen)

my method is:
1.import production audio
2. use "move to origin" from edit
3. reconform production audio using EDL
4. import AAF from AVID to check sync and get whatever they added in video edit

hope this helps,
kamil

Wow thank you guys !!! It works so well ... I've tried some things with Reconform but now it works. I just need one thing to make the workflow more fluid. I use your steps :

- import production audio (just mixdown first track on 1 audio track)
- move to origin
- reconform with EDL
- field recorder window to get the other tracks to layers.

Here's the last problem. If I keep all the reels in the EDL it's a mess in the reconform. I have to reconform reel by reel. I thought it would "filter" the events by using the audio production files "tape" metadata. Or maybe i'm missing something ?

But for the rest, it's reaaly great thanx again !
Romain Huonnic - Sound editor
http://www.label42.com/en/

kamilsaj
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by kamilsaj »

romainhc wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:39 pm

- import production audio (just mixdown first track on 1 audio track)

Here's the last problem. If I keep all the reels in the EDL it's a mess in the reconform. I have to reconform reel by reel. I thought it would "filter" the events by using the audio production files "tape" metadata. Or maybe i'm missing something ?
why do you only import one track?
you can import all the audio files (separate audio tracks if needed) and then reconform all at once.

for tape/reel metadata I was never able to do it in reconformer automatically, so I prefer to import production audio from different reels on separate tracks, for example: reel 1 audio tracks 1-8, reel 2 tracks 9-16 etc. after reconforming it's easy to delete not matching ones - unless you have a lot of reels with the same TC it's fast.

greetings,
kamil

romainhc
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by romainhc »

I'll make some tests for the "different reels" issue and find the best way to do it. For now, I import the production audio (mixdown #1) from one day on one track, remove all the other reels in the EDL and reconform. And do the same thing for each shooting day.

I just import one mixdown track and use the "field recorder" relink to layers, as we can't import (afaik) multitrack audio to dedicated audio track at once. If I import all the multitrack production audio from one reel to Nuendo, I get "cascading" style tracks. For example : 1st take -> track 1-8, 2nd take -> tracks 9-18, etc ... So you can have a lot of audio tracks created ! I then have to manually move all the takes to let's say audio tracks 1-16 and have all the takes on these dedicated tracks. The other import option put all the multichannel tracks on each other in just 1 audio track.

If I use the "field recorder" relink, I can relink from just 1 mixdown track, get all the associated tracks from production audio on layers and then create dedicated audio tracks from these layers.

Thanx for your answer !
Romain Huonnic - Sound editor
http://www.label42.com/en/

romainhc
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by romainhc »

ErikG wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:14 pm
The avid AAF export needs to export using copy all media (not using handles) then the audio sync will work.
Nuendo can’t handle mxf metadata at this time. This means that you have to rely on naming schemes and descriptions to link the files up. It works pretty well, but is not at all as efficient as using actual metadata.
Hi,

I've made a lot of tests and noway to keep it working that way. When opening an AAF generated by an Avid, no source TC is recognized in Nuendo. And when I open the same AAF in Protools, the source TC appears. I've also tried exporting a new AAF created from the first AAF imported and recognized in Protools, and opening it again in Nuendo .... no source TC.

But the EDL trick in Nuendo is far more easier and it seems to be reliable to conform production audio ... as in Protools, the field recorder expand get some serious issues when relinking from AAF. Sometimes Sync issue from several seconds to just 1 frame !
Romain Huonnic - Sound editor
http://www.label42.com/en/

kamilsaj
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by kamilsaj »

I get it.
I'm sure you will find the best way that works for you.
possibilities are endless with N10 and that's what I like about Nuendo

greetings,
kamil

ErikG
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by ErikG »

romainhc wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:32 pm
Hi,

I've made a lot of tests and noway to keep it working that way. When opening an AAF generated by an Avid, no source TC is recognized in Nuendo. And when I open the same AAF in Protools, the source TC appears. I've also tried exporting a new AAF created from the first AAF imported and recognized in Protools, and opening it again in Nuendo .... no source TC.

But the EDL trick in Nuendo is far more easier and it seems to be reliable to conform production audio ... as in Protools, the field recorder expand get some serious issues when relinking from AAF. Sometimes Sync issue from several seconds to just 1 frame !
There are several things here:

1) You are correct, but wrong. Relinking works 100% reliably if you do what I wrote and if the export was done correctly. But you (as well as I did in the beginning) probably think origin time checkbox should be active. It shouldn’t.
Origin time is a specific way to time stamp bwav files and is not the same as the TC time stamp. Origin time is what Steinberg and some other gear makers Use to time stamp files. But it is not timecode as in bwav.

We still prefer using Titan and audio EDL because it’s faster and we have used that workflow for years. But I do use the Field recorder audio import feature during mixing when I need to make sure that what I have is actually what I want or need. So I use it every day when mixing and it works and the re-linked files do end up correctly in sync.

However I do agree that basic bwav TC should be a relink choice as well. Why that was omitted is beyond my understanding.

2) Nuendo can’t read mxf metadata. When a bwav file is transcoded into mxf the way the metadata exists within the file structure of the file changes. And apparently Steinberg was not able to deal with that. For avid that is much easier as they know exactly how they do what they do when they transcode files.

Mxf workflows are a problem. But you have to use mxf if you use avids storage systems and multiuser editing. If you do not you can still (until 2019 at least I have not tried since) still run projects as non-mxf, but you have to make that decision before editing starts.
Last edited by ErikG on Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ErikG
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by ErikG »

To explain further, as it doesn’t use Bwav timecode it then uses Nuendos internal offset/start/end to define where the audio files should be in sync relative to one another. That is why you have to use copy all media (full length of all files) instead of using consolidated with handles.

If I can find the time I just may do a short video explaining the workflow. But yes it Does work and the files end up in sync. I promise.
Filmlance, a Swedish production company producing drama and feature films.
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by cyrileg »

+1 for a video
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by fuzzydude »

ErikG wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:54 am
To explain further, as it doesn’t use Bwav timecode it then uses Nuendos internal offset/start/end to define where the audio files should be in sync relative to one another. That is why you have to use copy all media (full length of all files) instead of using consolidated with handles.

If I can find the time I just may do a short video explaining the workflow. But yes it Does work and the files end up in sync. I promise.
😁
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romainhc
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by romainhc »

Hi all,

here's a quick video about the workflow i'm working on. It's still in progress and need to be optimized of course (macros and logic editor).

https://youtu.be/rLXzAKYeZUA

Thanx especially to kamilsaj !
Last edited by romainhc on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Romain Huonnic - Sound editor
http://www.label42.com/en/

romainhc
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Re: AAF production sound relink

Post by romainhc »

ErikG, I didn't understood what you meant earlier as I was looking for a TC that didn't exist in the AAF imported in Nuendo. And of course, if we only relink with name/description (and full audio files length) it will work (I'll try it later). For information, with Cantar audio files imported, the origin TC correspond to the TC it was recorder.

We can have two ways of relinking. With or whitout TC.

In my workflow in Nuendo, I had no issue with the sync, it was perfect. In PT, I have to recheck every audio as sometimes it slips from 1 frame to several seconds ....!
I hope to be the same in Nuendo with your method.
Romain Huonnic - Sound editor
http://www.label42.com/en/

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