Playback - the green line

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MarkSealey
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

I know you do, Paul; and I feel bad (and I know I'm trying everyone's patience) every time I mention it.
PaulWalmsley wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:40 pm
I appreciate your frustration, Mark.
Of course. And you're doing - if I may say - a magnificent job… look at the time now: way after hours for you. I (like everyone else) am truly grateful.
As Daniel has mentioned many times before, we do have to take some difficult decisions about where to focus our time, and we do try to ensure that the widest range of customers get the best bang for their buck. Having said that, we do also spend considerable time looking at problems such as this that do only affect a handful of users.
Understood. Thanks! And if you need a tester… :)
We do have some instrumentation code in Dorico already, but it currently doesn't contain enough specific information to diagnose this particular problem. I do hope to spend some time adding a bit more instrumentation that _could_ help.
I'll work the rest of today in Page view and see. (I usually work almost exclusively in Gallery.)
One extra bit of information that could be relevant: does this happen in page view as well as galley view?
Thanks very much again, Paul - and the Team!
--
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ReRei
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by ReRei »

Hi Paul,

It happens for me in both views.

And Robby I had the same thought so I waited and waited but the screen didn’t refresh no matter if the tool window was reached to its „invisible“ end.

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by PaulWalmsley »

If you try dragging the score around with the mouse does that cause it to 'wake up' and start updating again?
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MarkSealey
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Paul,

You bring up an interesting point: hasn't that functionality been removed from Dorico Pro 2?

I instinctively tried to do that on the morning I installed the upgrade - for reasons of plain positioning - and got a thick grey marquee instead. Have I inadvertently unset something?

Not to derail a thread so dear to my heart, though, dragging didn't use to fix it in v.1.

Annoyingly - or pleasantly depending on attitude - I worked for four hours yesterday in Page View with not one instance of the phenomenon. I switched to Galley: nothing.

I do appreciate how tough this must be for you to troubleshoot - even to observe - and am grateful :-)
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by PaulWalmsley »

By default hold down shift to drag it and with no modifier to make a marquis selection, but I think there's also a preference to switch this behaviour.
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Thanks, Paul!

Yes, I found the preference but - interestingly - it makes no difference, in case that's helpful; I'm happy to use SHIFT+ :)
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Yes, Paul - it seems to :) .

Was working for three or four hours this afternoon without a relaunch; Galley View; up it cropped.

Two things that nay help:
  1. when the screen should have scrolled leftwards, for a microsecond, what for all the world looks like a conventional (vertical, charcoal/dark grey) OS scrollbar appears at the extreme right hand edge of the score window… immediately to the left of the Panel
  2. if I SHIFT-drag the score within its window, it does 'wake' things up and is updated as normal.
Hope this may add something… somehow. Thanks!
PaulWalmsley wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am
If you try dragging the score around with the mouse does that cause it to 'wake up' and start updating again?
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Update: tried to 'wake' the scrolling today as you suggested - after the usual three to four hours, at which the phenomenon announces itself. This time it does nothing. So - alas - scrap dragging the score as a possible solution…
MarkSealey wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 am
Yes, Paul - it seems to :) .
PaulWalmsley wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:19 am
If you try dragging the score around with the mouse does that cause it to 'wake up' and start updating again?
--
Mark Sealey
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by ReRei »

PaulWalmsley wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:39 pm
By default hold down shift to drag it and with no modifier to make a marquis selection, but I think there's also a preference to switch this behaviour.
Just to let you know. It didn’t help me either unfortunately.

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by J_Woodtli »

Well it's good for Mark and bad for me, but I do have the same problem on my Mac. Even though I have all the settings in the preferences dialogue ticked, the playback line continues to move, but the score doesn’t move anymore to follow it and it scrolls out of view. Dorico is the only open application running. I tried with different Zoom Lives and different page views, but nothing changes.

Regards Jürg
Jürg

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ReRei
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by ReRei »

So there are more than a handful of users having this problem.

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Not really :-(

Not much can be accomplished for my style of composing: I have no formal training and do need to see and hear my scores as they are played back.

That's not feasible when the bug is active, alas; it'd be interesting to know what some of us have it and and others do not.

I'm sure the team will have an answer soon :).
J_Woodtli wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:46 pm
…Well it's good for Mark and bad for me…
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by J_Woodtli »

I'm sure the team will have an answer soon
My answer right now is sometimes working too:
Sometimes it helps to quit Dorico and restart the score …

Jürg
Jürg

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by DrChet »

I was going to ask this same question about Dorico 2.2 when the replies got me thinking (for a change) and I tried going from Page View to Galley View. The green line worked fine there, and the score was visible right to the end. BUT when I went back to Page View it worked fine, changing pages along with the green line. I don't know if this will work for everyone (or anyone) else but it seems to be working for me.

Chet

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

I've tired that; have also tried resizing the window; Saving and reloading the file; quitting and restarting Dorico; and experimenting with several other (combinations of) variables.

None of that, alas, banishes the bug consistently.
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by András at Steinberg »

We’ve found a bug recently, where the playhead stops following the score, if new music is added to the end of score after the first playback.

If you add music to the end of score before the first playback, everything should be fine, the playhead follows the score to the end for the first time. But if you add (enough, usually more than four bars) more music and play it back again, the playhead will move out of the view, as soon as it reaches the newly added bars.

This pattern is hard to recognise because sometimes changing layout or page view/galley view resets the relevant states. I think it can also be triggered by inserting music in the middle of the score in which case the playhead leaves the view as soon as it reaches the inserted music.

I wonder if this is what you experience?

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

András,

Congratulations on this progress!

I am still experiencing the bug.

When you say 'first playback', do you mean only the very first time a score is Played in Write mode?

And that it is the very act/process of adding bars at the end which is confusing Dorico, which is (perhaps: this is what I gather from your post) causing it to lose or otherwise incorrectly set (pointers to) the correct position for the playhead (from that moment on)?

In general terms, this would seem to be what I for one (others may have different experiences?) have noticed.

Though with the exception of the fact that my workflow is always:
  1. add bars in Write mode (at the end) or edit bars (anywhere)
  2. play back in Write mode… sometimes from the start, although usually not
  3. continue with 1
Is this consistent with what you have found?

It may be that the bug surfaces only after one playback (does that have to be the complete score composed so far in your investigations?).

And I'd have said that I lose the Playhead more frequently the longer a session progresses.

But I'm sure that it - although it probably does happen after first playback - I rarely get the bug every time I play back; regardless of where I edit or add.

Please keep your discoveries coming: I'd love to help you track it down. And thanks again!
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

We believe the problem is fixed in our development builds, as described by András above. Every time you add enough music that a new system is added in page view, or new bars are added in galley view, then the score will only be followed as far as the last system (or chunk of bars in galley view, which doesn't have systems of course but which Dorico splits into chunks internally). Saving, closing and reopening the project will alleviate the symptoms, until you add enough new bars that a new system is added.

As I say, this problem is fixed in our development builds, so I am confident you won't experience it again after the next update is released, whenever that may be.

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

That's extremely good news, Daniel. Thanks. Looking forward to this immensely :-)
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by J_Woodtli »

I also experience strange behavior of the green line, but there is said much about that in this post …
I add a different angle of view. How-about a keyboard shortcut like > 'go to the playhead/green line'. I need that a lot because I fix something in an other place and want to go back where the playhead is. Yes I know, that I could hit the spacebar and hit it again to stop. But I want to go the exact stop point. And it would be even cooler if I could use this shortcut while the tune is playing back. So I could "fix" the problem with the green line going out of view.
Jürg

Musician (Guitar), Lecturer & Teacher (primary school pedagogy, instructional methodology), Composer, Arranger, Choral Conductor
Platform: MacOS, iOS
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Jürg,

Are you suggesting this as an interim measure?

Surely, once the bug is fixed and the playback head anomaly is removed from the next production version, the green line will always be visible because the score will always have scrolled properly?

Or are you suggesting something that might be of greater use anyway: that such a shortcut (as '>') would do two things together:
  1. stop/pause/halt playback
  2. move the caret to the playhead (ready for immediate further editing)
?

This prompts me to ask a question which I've wanted to ask wince this first came up and Daniel was kind enough to point me personally to some solutions: does the fact that I come to Dorico not as a trained musician (no degree, no performing experience; but 60+ years of listening and loving music) make me (and those who use Dorico in a similar way) more likely to experience it?

To put is bluntly: are most users able to compose by writing long sections of music without ever needing to hear it played back?

I play back frequently (and so provoke the behaviour) every few bars… maybe once a minute etc!

Is that relevant in view of what András says?
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by ReRei »

I also play back frequently. This essential also for proof hearing besides other situations.

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by Rob Tuley »

MarkSealey wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm
To put is bluntly: are most users able to compose by writing long sections of music without ever needing to hear it played back?
I can only speak for myself, but I would guess "no performing experience" is very relevant here. Beyond the "beginner level" of learning to physically operate the instrument, any sort of "performance" involves a feedback loop of imagining what sound you want to produce, and making corrections to your actions playing the instrument (either on-the-fly in live performance, or through a lot of hard thinking and experimenting in the rehearsal room) to produce what you imagined.

IMO it doesn't seem a big step beyond that to imagine something and write it down reasonably accurately, without continual checking through computer playback. In fact I sometimes switch off "play notes as you enter them" because the "random noises" when jumping around between different instruments in the score are more of a distraction than a help.

One of my favorite quotes (from Kodaly) is about exactly this duality: "The goal of music education is to teach you how to see with your ears, and hear with your eyes".
MarkSealey wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm
Is that relevant in view of what András says?
The developers claim to have found a logical error which manifests itself in ways that don't fit any obvious pattern that the user would be likely to find, and fixed it.

From my experience of software development, the only way to find out of that is a "complete" solution to the problem is to wait and see what happens after you fixed it. But Occam's razor often applies, and "randomly occurring" problems tend to have one root cause (which can take a long time to track down!), not several.

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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Thanks, ReRei! That's re-assuring and encouraging :).
ReRei wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:46 pm
I also play back frequently.…
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Re: Playback - the green line

Post by MarkSealey »

Rob,

Thanks. Yes.

I certainly appreciate what you say about the (software) development process (having been a developer myself for several decades).

But if the bug manifests itself (only) as a result of the relationship between adding/editing bars and playing them back, it would suggest that those who cannot 'hear with their eyes' and so who do not often play back, will encounter it less often.

(I am certainly nowhere near able to hear notes just by looking at them. Not sure if I should even try. All advice welcome!)
Rob Tuley wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:47 pm
…One of my favorite quotes (from Kodaly)…
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Mark Sealey
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