voices and rests

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b_e_n
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voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

Hi together!
I'm just trying out Dorico 2 - and it feels very good!
Nevertheless I have some problems with the new philosophy of this app.
One of them has to do with rests in voices I don't want to see. I know, that normally I can switch them of by clicking on "Start voice" resp. "End voice" in the properties panel. But this doesn't work in every case - e.g. when notes are beamed. In the attachment you can see a part pf the prelude of Bach's 1st Cello-Suite. There the bisbligliando between a- and d-string ist notated by different stem-directions. Notes with stems up are beamed as well as those wit stems down. This is the traditional way to notate it - the photo is from the Urtext-edition. Does anyone have any idea how I could handle that?
Thank you very much!

Ben
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pianoleo
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Re: voices and rests

Post by pianoleo »

Have you tried just entering the passage, beaming the way you want to and then selecting and going Edit > Remove Rests?
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b_e_n
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Re: voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

Hi again!
Just in order to answer to my own question: The easies work-around is to "hide" the rests by applying a custom scale and setting it to 1%. In the print-out that looks like a very small dot - maybe some dirt, flyspeck or whatever. It works – but I don't like it. THERE MUST BE A BETTER SOLUTION! As I already wrote, this way of notating bisbiligiando is very traditional, so it would be great if Dorico could handle it without a nasty workaround. What do you think?
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b_e_n
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Re: voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

@pianoleo!
Thank you for your quick response!

I was busy with my own answer, so I did not see it. I tried it out, but I didn't succed. I have to admit, that I am very unexperienced with Dorico. Since now I have been a Sibelius user. I understood that "hidden" elements don't fit the philosophy of Dorico. But I still need some exercise.
3 new beams wrong stem direction.png
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When I remove the rests, all beams will be killed but the voices remain (look at the colors in my screenshots).
When I re-beam the notes, I cannot find any possibility to force the stem-direction.

What can I do?

Thank you for your help – and sorry for my bad english!

b_e_n
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Re: voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

It's me again!
Sorry for my confusion: I finally found the Option "force stem direction" in the context-menu in write-mode. Now it works, although I still find it a bit complicated. It feels as if it required three times more mouse-clicks and keyboard-actions like in the apps I'm used to. But maybe that's only because I'm a bloody beginner in Dorico.
Ben

fkretlow
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Re: voices and rests

Post by fkretlow »

It's probably less laborious to select the passage, filter rests and then hide them with the color property (set the alpha channel to zero). This way they're hidden completely. Of course your solution could be considered more 'correct', semantically...

I seem to remember that the custom scale property could be set to zero in 1.2. Has this been changed?
Florian

b_e_n
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Re: voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

@fkretlow

Yes, I think so. When I enter 0%, it's automatically changed to 1%.
Your solution is a good idea, too – especially when you are used to deal with hidden elements (what I am).

But I thought: Dorico's main idea is to force a much closer relationship between what you mean and what you input. I found this a very good idea - in the principle!(!!) But now I ask myself, how many disadvantages this idea may have: In most cases composing and writing notes is not only based on pure semantic decisions. It is always influenced by (more or less unconscious) graphic ideas. Especially in writing for solo-instruments all composers of all periods found their specific way to show what they mean by re-combining traditional elements of musical notation. These re-combinations were, when they appeared for the first time, semantically "wrong" - but nevertheless they were understood. This process of permanent renewal of notation seems to be very important for musical progress (or however you might call it). And I am in a real doubt, if Dorico's extremely strict approach to musical notation can give us the freedom we feel when we "think with the pencil in the hand".

On the other hand I like working with Dorico much more than with other apps. I'm just testing it for a few hours and (despite all the problems I mentioned above) it feels very, very good. Maybe I buy the full version - maybe I buy a new pencil (although pencils have no tryout version).
Last edited by b_e_n on Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pianoleo
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Re: voices and rests

Post by pianoleo »

Ben, in your response to me you showed a version with "wrong stem direction". You were totally on the right tracks - you just need to select the passage, go Edit (or right click) > Filter > Voices > All Upstem Voices (or Upstem Voice 1) and then go Edit (or right click) > Stem > Force Stem Up.

No need for workarounds whatsoever.
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& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
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b_e_n
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Re: voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

Dear pianoleo,
thank you for your answer. I just found the option (cf. my next-to-last post). It works perfect - but as I already mentioned, it takes much time and many mouse-clicks and keyboard-inputs. It feels as if Dorico's basic idea of avoiding sophisticated workarounds (like in other apps) turns back into a still more sophisticated brain cramp when things are a bit unusual. Sometimes it feels like a graphic version of lilypond ... But may be I got this feeling only because I'm very very new to Dorico.
Thanks a lot for your help!
Ben

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pianoleo
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Re: voices and rests

Post by pianoleo »

I think you have to bear in mind that, even if it is Bach, you're trying to do something a little unusual. You're right that it's clunky to do this sort of thing in Dorico, but it's certainly possible without resorting to workarounds such as colouring rests white.

For what it's worth, I have assigned a series of shortcuts to filter upstem voices, downstem voices, highest notes, lowest notes, commonly used beaming commands and hiding rests (via Edit > Remove rests). It really doesn't feel clunky once you've been working with the software a while, and I'd go so far as to say that it's no slower than e.g. Sibelius for this sort of thing (and for most things it's faster).
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico Pro 3.5 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

b_e_n
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Re: voices and rests

Post by b_e_n »

I think you are totally right! I simply have to practice. And to me the Sibelius-"solution" only seemed to be easier, because I'm more used to it. Like You, I already set up some shortcuts and found them very useful. Especially for piano music, Dorico has big advantages over common apps. I was always angry about the way, Sibelius (e.g.) handles two-staves-intruments. (Writing down this I think I should prefer to practice a Beethoven Sonata on the piano rather than practicing a computer program.)
Ben

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