Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

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GuyM
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Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

I am struggling here sadly
Tried for a couple of hours!
I want to send patch changes to my Nord Stage 2
It has 4 Banks (A,B,C,D) ..I can get the changes within a selected Bank working but not the Bank select itself
How does the Bank Select option work in the Channel strip
I was told that Bank Select has to do with the MSB Value being set but I cannot figure it out!!

Please anyone with Cubase 7.5 doing this successfully, put me out of my misery
Ta
Guy
Last edited by GuyM on Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

There are 2 Bank Select messages:

Bank Select MSB (Most Significant Byte) = MIDI Controller 0
Bank Select LSB (Least Significant Byte) = MIDI Controller 32

The banks are selected by preceding the Program Change message with a Control Change message which specifies a new value for Controller 0 and Controller 32.

You can insert both the Bank Select controller and Program Change messages from the MISI list editor.

Since the MIDI specification does not describe the manner in which a synthesizer's banks are to be mapped to Bank Select messages, there is no standard way for a Bank Select message to select a specific bank. You need to check the manual for the Stage 2 to see what Bank Select values you need to send to select banks A to D.
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GuyM
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Thanks Jenks
Sorry to be thick but I need it spelling out!
I think you are saying that you cannot send just ONE control to select both the Bank (A,B,C,D) and the Patch Number with that Bank (e.g D:02:1) Bank D...Program 02:1

Does that mean the the Bank Select box in the Channel Strip does not work??
Do I use Quick Controls to do this?
a) enter the 2 CC values for the Bank (A,B,C or D 0,1,2, or 3) ) and then have to add the Program Number underneath? to select the 02:1 bit

Is there no simple way to just define a MIDI Track and set it send Bank + Program Number together?
Guy

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

As you say, you can do this from the inspector (if you know the bank select values you need for the Stage 2).

Another way of working is to actually enter the MIDI events at the start of the track rather than using the inspector. One advantage(?) of this way of working is that you can include programme change commands within the track.

The first bar of the project is typically used to set up all the MIDI devices. So,using the MIDI List Editor, a track might start with:-

Bank Select (LSB, MSB)
Programme Change

One way to see how this works is to import a GM file (with Extract First Patch, Extract First Volume/Pan, Import Controller as Automation Tracks all disabled), select a track and open the MIDI list editor. At the start of each track you should see all the MIDI controller and program changes required to initialise the track.

(If there's a SysEx track in the file then there may not be Bank Select Messages on the tracks but, nevertheless, you should see the technique.)
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

This is the NORD MANUAL

Program Change
In the MIDI Menu, you can select if the Nord Stage 2 should send and/
or receive program Change messages on the Global channel that affects
its internal programs. Program Change messages with the value
0-99 selects the programs in the active bank, Program Change messages
100-104 selects the 5 Live memories.

Bank Select
The 4 Program Banks in the Stage 2 can be remotely selected via
MIDI, by transmitting a Bank Select Message that looks like this: CC 0,
value 0, CC 32 value 0, 1, 2 or 3 (for banks A, B, C and D). The Bank
Select should immediately be followed by a Program Change message,
value 0-99.

So Yes I could add it into a bar preceding the start of song but was rather hoping I could just enter it somehow on the Channel Navigation strip for the Nord Stage 2

It does say Bank Select on the inspector after all !!

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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

Assuming your synth has been set to receive Bank Select messages on the MIDI channel you're using then you should certainly be able to select the bank you want using the inspector. The implication from your manual is that A=1, B=2, C-3 and D=4 (since these are LSB values and the MSB=0).
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Yes I think it should too and the Nord Forum agrees as well

There is no BANK SELECT enable on/off somewhere is there that influences the Inspector?

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

See Cubase Manual:-

Page 126, 460 and 466

If you haven't already been there!
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Thanks
I do not think there is a Nord Stage 2 Preset yet....
....So would have to attempt to add a new device and define the Banks etc
It does look quite tricky to me!
Will have to wait until have some extra time m'thinks

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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Buchanan »

Look at Preferences / Filters. Turn the sysex filter off. Any joy?
Everyone wants perfect software. But nobody's perfect.

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

If you're looking for a device map, I don't know if this is any use?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/421 ... 202225.zip
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GuyM
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Thank you, will take a look :)

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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

If you know the MSB & LSB..how do these combine to make one value to input in the BANK SELECT input box?~
Is there a formula?

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

Many devices only use the MSB to change banks and ignore the LSB. If yours does this then add $80 to the bank number and subtract 1.

For example, if you want BANK 2 then send $81.

(This used to work for me on a Roland synth)
Win 10-64bit : Yamaha FW Driver (1.6.5) : C9.01 64-bit with Motif XS (1.6.1) and N12 (1.6.4) extensions : Motif XS8 : Yamaha N12 : Mackie Control : MOX6 : Behringer X32

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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Check - Is that an "S" in there? Not just a number?

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

It's a hex number. So 128 decimal. (sorry!)
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GuyM
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

The Nord seems to ignore the MSB and use the LSB....
whe I put Learn MIDI on the patch change message i got something like this:

Msb = 0 Lsb = 1 Pgm 002

to get to Bank B Patch 2

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

OK, that's the other way round then.

In which case, the MSB is 0 and LSB is 2, then the combined number is just 0+2 = 2.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

yes...thought so..... but that is the bit that does seem to not work!

My SetListMaker app on the iPad will send and change the Nord (as it splits MSB, LSB and PRGM up) but Cubase does not (using the Bank Select on the Inspector)

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

Have you tried explicitly entering the Bank Select messages, using the list editor, on a MIDI track outputting to your Nord ?

Insert CC0 = 0
CC32 = 2
PGMCHG = 4 (say)

Play the MIDI track and see if the Nord changes Bank and Program.

If it does then you know three things:-

1) The Nord is responding to Bank Select messages;
2) Cubase is outputting the Bank Select messages;
3) You have the right numbers to use.

If that all works and the inspector method doesn't then you might have stumbled across an issue with the inspector which might need SB support.
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Will try that out later and report back :)

I wil try to add these CCs in the Quick Controls (Inspector) too


Thanks

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

I've created a MIDI file for you to test the Bank Select messages. You can get it from here:-

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/421 ... 20Test.mid

Import the file into Cubase, check that the inspector is showing the track outputting to your Nord and then hit play.

If the Nord is responding to Bank Select messages (and they are what you said above) then you should hear a scale being played on different instruments in different banks one after the other.
Win 10-64bit : Yamaha FW Driver (1.6.5) : C9.01 64-bit with Motif XS (1.6.1) and N12 (1.6.4) extensions : Motif XS8 : Yamaha N12 : Mackie Control : MOX6 : Behringer X32

GuyM
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

OK excellent!
Thanks
Guy

GuyM
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by GuyM »

Ok TESTED NOW
1. Your imported MID file works perfectly and the 3 Bank / Patches are selected successfully (thanks)
So MIDI P/Change IS being sent and received on the NORD however....

2. Putting the CC0 and CC32 into Quick Controls does nothing unless I have to do something to activate this function?

3. Adding a 0, 1, 2 or 3 into the left hand Inspector Bank Select Input Box with a PrgNumber of 10 in the right hand box does nothing either

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Jenks
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Re: Cubase 7.5 and sending MIDI Program Changes

Post by Jenks »

OK we've made progress.

Let's deal with the Quick Controls first. The MIDI protocol says that the Bank Select commands must precede the PgmChg command. Perhaps this means "immediately" precedes.

So, using Quick Controls, send a Bank Select message. Easiest way is to change the value. Then immediately change the PgmChg value. This should force Cubase to send the changed Bank Select Message followed by the changed PgmChg value.

Does the Nord respond?
Win 10-64bit : Yamaha FW Driver (1.6.5) : C9.01 64-bit with Motif XS (1.6.1) and N12 (1.6.4) extensions : Motif XS8 : Yamaha N12 : Mackie Control : MOX6 : Behringer X32

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