Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

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k8stribe
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Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

I just finished my first two songs in C6 (in 32 mode so I can use all of my plugs) and my mix's sound decent before I export the audio file but sound horrible when I burn it onto disk. Is there a box I should click (L/R, Split etc...) before I export? I’m using the same plugs and eq's I’ve always used in SX3. My mixes are nowhere near as clean and imaged as they were in SX3. Even while mixing I can't get the same punch out of the drums in C6 or the same eq separation as I did before. Everything sounds phased and washed out. I’m using Waves Stereo L316, V Compressor and Ozone 4 on my stereo bus to tighten up the mix before export.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by DaveDaveDave »

Hmm.. off the top of my head it sounds like it's a pan-law issue - this will affect how your compressors and limitors are hitting everything. Can you double check what your pan-law settings were in SX 3 and compare?

BTW, that sounds like a LOT of dynamics processing in your master plugs. Which of the modules are you using in Ozone and L316? (I'm not familiar with Waves at all though... )
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by NorthWood MediaWorks »

k8stribe wrote:I just finished my first two songs in C6 (in 32 mode so I can use all of my plugs) and my mix's sound decent before I export the audio file but sound horrible when I burn it onto disk. Is there a box I should click (L/R, Split etc...) before I export? I’m using the same plugs and eq's I’ve always used in SX3. My mixes are nowhere near as clean and imaged as they were in SX3. Even while mixing I can't get the same punch out of the drums in C6 or the same eq separation as I did before. Everything sounds phased and washed out. I’m using Waves Stereo L316, V Compressor and Ozone 4 on my stereo bus to tighten up the mix before export.
What are your system/interface specs?
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

I'm using Preset Enhanced #3 in the L316 and slight tape gain & stereo spread in the Ozone and using the mastering copression in the Waves V Comp. This sounds great in SX3. I'm not familiar with the "Pan Law Settings, where can I find this in SX3 & C6?

My DAW is an ASUS w/an AMD 2.8 Quad & 4 G's of Ram. running W7 Home Premium. Im using a Delta 1010 recording in multi channel. I'm mixing with Event P6 monitors and Shure SRH440 Headphones.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

I did 4 separate mix downs last night of the same song. 1 with just stereo expander and the vintage comp, 1 with only ozone on slight dynamics, 1 w/ Waves L316 on Enhance 3 + Stereo Expander, 1 w/ just slight eq. All of them sounded great pre-mix down, no clipping everything in its own space and nice and clean. All of the mixes sounded too hot and muddy lows and harsh highs.
I never experienced this in SX3. I will attempt to use the exact settings in SX3 and do a comparison. My songs I mixed and mastered in the older versions of VST in the late 90's on my old Gateway 1Ghz 512Ram computer sounded much better than I'm getting now. Since I've been using SX3 for so long Is there an export set up or perameters that need to be set up and adjusted differently in the newer versions of Cubase? I'm spending hours carefully fine tuning with no results. Should I mixdown dry and open the mix in a production or mastering set up before I add my mastering tools? I used to do it this way but through trial and error found ways to get sonically good mix's.

Could it be a setting in a recent Windows 7 update causing this? I've pulled off several good mixes on tis same computer.


How can I post short clips of my results? FYI, I do 90% audio recording using live instruments.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by dirkpiano »

You mean that everything sounds fine in Cubase, but something is going wrong in the Export Audio Mixdown function that makes the resulting audio-file sound bad, correct?

What format did you export to? Wav?
What sample rate / bit depth? Did you try other options? What's the project's sample rate/bit depth?

Maybe have a look at manual p488, about the Audio Engine Output section and try different settings?
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

Yes, everything sounds good during playback. I'm exporting as a wave file. I'm running in 32 bit to access all of my plugins but I do have the 32 and 64 bit drivers installed for my soundcard. All my sample rate/bit depth's are set correctly. I did remove all of the plugins and I do hear a slight delay and phase issues in the recordings that I didn't notice before. I also noticed that my mids are almost completely gone in the mix downs. Some of the guitar parts are completely missing. Could it be an issue with my soundcard (Delta 1010) and Windows 7 settings? I've heard of others having similar problems as me.

I do remember everything sounding the most crisp and clear as I ever heard it then Windows did an update overnight and it seems Ive been having sound quality issues ever since. I've tried Sys restore and removing a few items with no luck. Should I be looking at a setting in Windows 7 to diable as far as conflicting sound drivers or sound settings?

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by Grim »

Are these tracks you've recorded in C6 or imported from a previous version?

When you say some guitar tracks are missing....presumably you mean in the export but not in normal playback?
Are the tracks that go missing panned fully (or mostly) left or right in your project?
Can you definitely still hear stereo information in your mixdown file?

Why not try importing a stereo track from CD or something & immediately export it.
Might help narrow down the cause.
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by dirkpiano »

split the L&R channels during export and listen to them seperately?

I may be completely wrong here, but I don't see how the soundcard or drivers could have an effect on export: I thought this was a purely mathematical function inside the computer, "simply" calculating the 1's and 0's and saving them into a file, no audio input or output involved. But again: I could be talking complete b*sh*t here... :oops:
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

I recorded everything in C6. I can hear the stereo spread in the mix downs on the CD but they are much more extreme. I have the 1st Rack Tom panned L20, Floor Tom L20, two Acoustic tracks panned L30/R30 two heavy guitar tracks panned L20/R20. In the mixdowns I'm hearing the snare panned hard R and everything else just plain out of wack from where I originally placed them. The bass has no punch even though it dominates the mix and the Guitars sound thin and matalic like they are over processed with plate reverb.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by Grim »

OK so try my suggestion of importing a CD audio track & exporting it immediately. Are there any problems with this??
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by Split »

Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Thats funny, mine always sound like showaddywaddy...

Double check your connections, in particular make sure control room is not turned on, or if it it make sure the normal out connections are set to not connected.
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by Grim »

in particular make sure control room is not turned on, or if it it make sure the normal out connections are set to not connected.
Good call...I'd forgotten the mess this duplication of signal could make.....though not sure it ever affected panning in the way he describes.
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

I uploaded some of my older projects in C6 64x. I know these mixes were good and they did sound really clear and crisp in Cubase. I exported them and burned a disk and viola crap! Every mix down I have done in C6 or C6 64x sounds like crap for some reason. Some parts the drums vanish other parts the timing is completely out of whack. What would cause a mix down to go completely off tempo? Some songs the drums start off correctly then the guitars come in a step out of sync. Other areas the drums will be on perfect tempo and then warp for a measure. I've never had these problems in the 12 years I've been using Cubase.

Also Cubase 6 64x is not loading all of my plug ins. I have several 64 bit plugs that dont show up. I have mapped my plug ins to all of my VST folders and when I hit update Cubase freezes. This version seems to be great for MIDI but I have wasted two weeks now trying to get this thing to mix properly. What a waste.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by Grim »

I think you need to slow down & take a deep breath....Stop trying to load old complete projects & repeating the problem over & over & fault find the isssue methodically.

Firstly....you keep talking about burnt CDs....but let's forget about CD & solve the problem just on the PC first.
Burning a CD is only going to waste more of your time.

Secondly.....please confirm exactly how you are exporting the mixdown of your track.
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by fishtank »

First of all, why are you messing with C6 64 now? As I understood it, you were working with the 32 bit version of the application when you discovered the problem - you should get things figured out here first before moving on as the 32 bit version is working fine (for mix-down at least) for the rest of us. For many, the 32-bit version is the better choice right now due to the fact that a fair amount of VST plugs still have no 64 bit version at present.

It definitely sounds like your tracks are somehow combining with duplicates causing weird phasing problems. This would explain the washed out sound and the wider stereo panning you are hearing. The first place I would look is your VST connections - it important that you have everything set up properly here as a great deal has changed since SX3. You may want to list out to us exactly how your VST Connections outputs are configured and if the Control Room is enabled etc.

I'm also confused on why you have the 32-bit AND 64-bit drivers for the soundcard installed? If you are running Windows 7 64 you would ONLY install the 64 bit soundcard drivers - whether you are using C6 32 or C6 64 (or both). This could be causing the problem, or at least something to do with and app that configures the 1010 routing/monitoring etc (I have no idea as I have never used that card).

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

I ran C6 in XP mode and recorded drums and base and the mix sounded good on the cd. I have been recording my acoustic tracks and heavy lead tracks in stereo to get a good spread. Should I be tracking these in mono then duplicating and panning them? Maybe its a phase issue recording in stereo? I have been running stereo epanders on the stereo tracks and on the export bus.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by NorthWood MediaWorks »

k8stribe wrote:I ran C6 in XP mode and recorded drums and base and the mix sounded good on the cd. I have been recording my acoustic tracks and heavy lead tracks in stereo to get a good spread. Should I be tracking these in mono then duplicating and panning them? Maybe its a phase issue recording in stereo? I have been running stereo epanders on the stereo tracks and on the export bus.
Are you talking about XP mode inside of Windows 7? If you are, there's your problem.
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

[/quote]Are you talking about XP mode inside of Windows 7? If you are, there's your problem.[/quote]

Yes, I was running it in Windows 7 when I was having the problems. I will do an export of the same mix in W7 mode and see if it sounds the same. I defanately got the punch back in the kick and snare in the exported mix while in XP mode. I tried a test recording the guitar direct using the VST Amp rack. Not very impressed with the quality of the tones.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by DaveDaveDave »

k8stribe wrote:
Are you talking about XP mode inside of Windows 7? If you are, there's your problem.
Yes, I was running it in Windows 7 when I was having the problems. I will do an export of the same mix in W7 mode and see if it sounds the same. I defanately got the punch back in the kick and snare in the exported mix while in XP mode. I tried a test recording the guitar direct using the VST Amp rack. Not very impressed with the quality of the tones.

I'm dying to see the resolution of this problem - prolly not as much as you are though ;)

First, did you check out the control-room suggestion someone mentioned above? It sounds like a good one to me.
So - also as someone mentioned before - to save time, you should probably just export to wave files instead of burning a disk - I'm sure that you'll hear the same problem if you export with the same project setup as you had to begin with at the onset of these problems. In the unlikely case that you *don't* have the same problem exporting waves instead of CDs, I'd try burning the CDs using something else for the time being.
After that, here's my advice to lick this one - thinking that it's probably an effect that isn't working with Cubase 6 very well. Try this:
1 - turn off ALL the effects - every single insert and send - export wav, compare.
2 - - If the problem goes away (i.e. the wav sounds the same as cubase playback - I bet it will) - turn on half of the effects, export, compare
3 - - - if it comes back, turn off half of those effects, export compare, go to step 2 above
4 - - - it it still doesn't happen, turn on 1/2 of the remaining effects, go to step 2 above

That's all I can think of for now... wish you luck, and let us know..
Dave
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by Grim »

I'm dying to see the resolution of this problem - prolly not as much as you are though
Yes....Please make it end :mrgreen:
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

DaveDaveDave wrote:
First, did you check out the control-room suggestion someone mentioned above? It sounds like a good one to me.
you should probably just export to wave files instead of burning a disk - I'm sure that you'll hear the same problem if you export with the same project setup as you had to begin with at the onset of these problems. In the unlikely case that you *don't* have the same problem exporting waves instead of CDs, I'd try burning the CDs using something else for the time being.
After that, here's my advice to lick this one - thinking that it's probably an effect that isn't working with Cubase 6 very well. Try this:
That's all I can think of for now... wish you luck, and let us know..
Dave[/quote]


I have all control room disabled. I'm exporting wave files then I'm using another application to burn the disks. I have shut down several plugs and I'm only using PSP Mix Pressure and Stereo Expander on the main bus with no sends. The last few mixes sound better in XP mode. I will switch back to W7 and export the same mix. For some reason I was able to mix much faster with better results in the older versions of Cubase. My exports sounded like my mixes.

I wish I knew how to post examples. I have mix downs from SX3 that I used identical settings in the C6 Mix and the SX mix is much more crisp and sonically defined.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by mbourque »

Have you listened to the mixdown file directly? Is it alright?
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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by k8stribe »

mbourque wrote:Have you listened to the mixdown file directly? Is it alright?

Yes, but I'm listening through the same referance monitors and headphones.I'm going to hook up my good stereo to my board and see if there is a difference.

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Re: Mix's Sound Like Mud In C6

Post by hikarateboy »

I can't wait to find out what the problem was as well.

Sounds like a phase canceling issue and the mentions of stereo expanders, fix it at the mix buss and pyscho acoustic type plugins has me suspicious. I'll be surprised if its the operating system.

One person mentioned not going to 64 bit above because they have so many 32 bit plugins. That confuses me as I run 64 bit Cubase and still use my old 32 plugs as well so confused me and wondering what that meant.
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