Upgrade Pricing - fair deal?

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steveecrane
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Upgrade Pricing - fair deal?

Post by steveecrane »

Lunchtime - time to rant! :x

I've been a Steinberg user since Pro24, so I've invested heavily in Steinberg products whilst tolerating some of the mediocre rubbish they've peddled over the years (as well as many of the bugs they've failed to fix before 'moving on' to the next major release too!). I've also accepted that some of their hardware has had the life-span of a Mayfly. :lol:

Against this backdrop, I'm now of the opinion that their pricing model requires modernising in some way. I don't post to forums that often ... but I'm pretty annoyed this morning at being taken advantage of, maligned and not listened to. So, for what it's worth, here goes...

What has convinced me that a change is required to Steinberg's pricing model is that I've just looked at the v5 to v6 (or, more correctly, v6.5) upgrade pricing for Cubase: £168, for an UPDATE!!! :o :shock: :( :x :cry:

:shock: :o ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY EIGHT BRITISH POUND STERLING. :o :shock:

I can acquire full versions of other manufacturer's software for that! And I don't need yet another soft synth, so that mitigates against the 'investment' in 2 new VSTi's for the X.5 update, regardless of how good they are.

The problem, IMHO, is that there's no (or very little) recognition for loyal customers. What's more disheartening (aka annoying) is the "Special Offer" eMails Steinberg release which, to put it bluntly, quite simply aren't "Special" at all and simply add insult to injury. Do you get the feeling Steinberg (or Yamaha) seldom ever check the real world and/or on-line pricing for their products at all? I can always obtain better pricing locally, albeit with a little haggling sometimes. Try it; it can be fun. :P

Dictionary definition of "Special": "distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual". Hmmm!!!

[And it seems I'm not the only one who feels this way: http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... c0559aff32 !]

Whatever happened to the maxim that one of the benefits for customers of on-line distribution would be lower provisioning costs, i.e. the price you and me pay for products? Manufacturers rarely ship a decent manual with boxed products these days (having told us we'll save money by downloading an Adobe version instead) yet this has proven empty, hollow rhetoric, a.k.a. polite marketing spiel for a lie. In reality there's little or no differentiation achieved by not receiving a decent printed manual; rather, it's simply a cost reduction on the manufacturer's part, i.e. executed simply to increase profit margins by reducing overheads. (Do they really think we're that stupid?). :x

[And you gotta love those companies who do still ship printed manuals ... but only from an oversea's destination, making the cost of shipping almost as high as the original product purchase itself, whilst disallowing downloads, even for upgardes. You know who you are, Soundsonline Europe!!! Go negotiate with FedEx, DPD or UPS ... or get some decent in-country distributors set up!]

It's taken this long to seriously consider upgrading not just because I wanted all the interminable early release issues to be resolved, but also because we're in the middle of a global economic recession ... and I simply didn't have the free cash for 'nice-to-haves'! Oh and I couldn't find anything that would genuinely help me make music in the initial v6 release, just 'toys'. :roll:

So, here's a novel idea: howsabout a modular approach to software development and, ergo, pricing? Each major feature (or feature-set) has to be 'unlocked' by the payment of a fee? If you don't have that feature, the upgrade costs are commensurately lower; if you don't need a new feature in a later release, you don't pay for it. :idea:

Isn't it amazing that Apple's apps (frequently retailing for <<< $1 or €1 or £1 can manage in-app upgrades and modular functionality ... but~£600 of pro software cannot! It all comes down to willingness, not the (understandable) complexity this might introduce.

[Here's another thought, Steinberg: if you want Media Bay to be genuinely useful to all your users, supply it with the requisite templates for products from all the major/popular VSTi developers out there, replete with all the pre-existing patch info readily categorised with high-quality, useful meta data. And howsabout including a simplified way to import VST banks and pacthes in one go, whilst you're at it - not the current 'clunky' mechanism - as well as any underlying categorisation detail!? It's Cubase in 2012, not a Fairlight in the 1980s. ;)

Perhaps you could even consider being somewhat innovative in achieving these goals by incentivising companies - 'partners' in the modern parlance(!) - which already adhere to your VST2/3 standards, to play their part in some way? Maybe you could consider supplying development tools and/or licences to help them achieve this at a reduced cost, only if they embrace Media Bay and provide this highly-useful meta data at source, i.e. when the VSTi ships? Now there's a genuinely useful feature I'd invest in. In fact, I'd pay a few quid for each and every VSTi that has usable Media Bay meta data integral to it or available as an add-on. :idea:

As it stands, Media Bay has not really progressed much since its inception and, to make it usable, much of the requisite investment of effort is actually required by the user, something which I'd venture has been duplicated many times over. :?

Well-implemented meta data is one of the reasons Spectrasonics' Omnisphere is my go-to synth of choice: the directory system is well-developed and is well-suited to musicians, not programmers. Given the depth and breadth of sounds, I seldom need more than one other (analogue-based) synth and a dedicated drum machine to finish a track! On the downside, I was one of the fools that were conned by NI to buy into their Kore product range.]
:x

Anyways ... I digress.

It strikes me that Steinberg are undoubtedly technically innovative but not necessarily a visionary or commercially astute organisation (cf their sale to Pinnacle which benefited precisely no one! But I digress.)

Over the years then, my investment has been significant - both in terms of time and money - and it is these 2 facets which have helped sway the argument and keep me loyal (even through version 4 of Cubase, the first PC-compatible release and the initial attempts at adding audio to a MIDI-only sequencer!!!). However, I am at the point now where there are some truly excellent competing products out there, where the developer's customer support is highly-responsive, where the overly-busy GUI doesn't hurt my eyes(!) and where they actually listen to amateurs and pros alike. Ever spoken to a developer? I have ... just not a Steinberg one! (The bug was resolved in less than 72 hours. Now that's customer-centric service for you!) :D

Now there's a novel thought - developers (with some semblance of social skills) who are permitted to speak with users! And don't give me the usual party line, Steinberg, that this would be a 'distraction' to their day-job. Surely their day-job is developing software users actually need; software which actually fulfils its promise? And isn't listening to users an important part of that process? You're quite happy for your staff to be 'distracted' by well-known professional users because there's an upside to be had in terms of subsequent marketing opportunities: using their public profile and inherent/ensuing endorsement to achieve positive advertising and incremental sales for Steinberg. I just think that treating your everyday, bread'n'butter customers with such contempt is utterly contemptuous. :evil:

Customers who are seen as a distraction, IMHO, simply indicates the underlying modus operandi of a company; it's philosophy; its ethos. Anyone else here frustrated with companies and their developers hiding behind forums, together with less-than-responsive moderators who never admit to anything, let alone a fault almost everyone else experiences but them(!)? It seems to me that far from becoming focused areas for dedicated customer support, forums have become stuffed with myopic tirades, worthless debate, lengthy discussion (like this one!) and questionable individuals who only ever seem to heap praise on the forum's 'owners' and their products, as if they were themselves paid employees of self-same company(!)? ;)

And why would you not want an evangelical 'normal' customer, one who screams your praises from the rooftops? I'd venture that they might be more trusted and effective than those pro users who can be seen as somewhat distant and divorced from the everyday reality of your myriad home-based users, for whom an investment is well-considered out of necessity. But, what do I know? I'm just speculating. :ugeek:

Are we not intelligent enough to prioritise our own service calls - something which puts us in control - only ever contacting Steinberg (and/or subsequently escalating faults) when we have a mission-critical issue that requires resolving? Obviously they think we're not. We have to sit by politely accepting a "...we'll try to respond to your correspondence in 24 (business) hours..."! And all this for a piece of software we've paid at least £600 for! I think we deserve (and should demand) telephone support! (Yet again, I can recommend Spectrasonics who, over the course of 3 days, placed 4 international telephone calls to track me down simply to tell me they knew of my problem already and were doing a, b and c to resolve it!) :idea:

Only 24 hours to acknowledge receipt? Of course ... because hobbyists, amateurs and semi-pros tend to write music during the day, in the middle of the week, and can wait until the following weekend to finish their creative outpouring!!! How do you think we actually pay for your software, Steinberg? We actually play with it at weekends and late in the evenings ... and earn the cash to buy your products during the week; ergo we need support at the weekends and during 'evenings'! USA-->Germany-->Japan-->USA-->Germany-->Japan - when are you going to offer a 'follow-the-sun' model of customer support? Or are you still maintaining that Europe (Germany) is the only place which can formally respond to support requests despite being part of a multi-national conglomerate? :oops:

So, I seldom acquire an upgraded version of any manufacturer's software until its proven and many of the release bugs are ironed out; ergo the extended 'delay' until upgrading from v5 to v6. But now I can only go straight for v6.5. I wouldn't mind if that got me a fully-working, 'fixed' product ... but I find I am having to fund the development of brand new 'toys' for which I have absolutely no need: I've all the VSTi's I want ... and scant time to learn and exploit these fully, if truth be told! And it peeves me that having made the v5 investment, I get charged exactly the same as a v4 user. What's that all about? Did I miss the free v4 to v5 upgrade? I think not! :lol:

Whatever happened to X.0 major upgrades having new functionality and being (reasonably and understandably) chargeable, with minor X.y versions simply fixing and fine-tuning existing features/functionality at no charge? The current Steinberg model is confused and confusing in its execution ... and expensive to boot. :?

[Take a look at the amazing support - both technical and commercial - levelled by Spectrasonics if you need any clues as to what's possible. Superb!] :D

Like many before me, I now have a tough decision to make ... made that bit easier by Yamaha showing their hand in how Steinberg price models are likely to operate going forward. It looks like around about now is the time to sever my erstwhile ties with Steinberg and look to a more sensible manufacturer, one who looks after and doesn't fleece it's loyal customer base. :cry:

[It might surprise anyone who's managed to read this far(!) to know that there are a surprisingly high number of professional and semi-pro users who don't employ their hard-earned profits to upgrade and update their software-based tools. They're actually still at versions of software many years old ... because it delivers the features they need, it works, is stable ... and they're far too busy actually working to spend an inordinate amount of time either understanding the 'new' methods (which are meant to improve workflow and reduce their administrative overhead on common tasks), or learning how to use all the worthless new functionality and whiz-bang features (devised/OK'd by marketeers to ensure their company sells yet more product). Cynical? Moi? :twisted:

My new world order could prove fun - invigorating perhaps - as opposed to frustrating, without me paying through the nose to experience that self-same frustration with Steinberg.

Here's hoping someone in the Yamaha behemoth takes note and at least gives this a little innovative consideration ... rather than getting all (bean-counter) defensive, with sales hyperbole and marketing rhetoric. After all, it wasn't that long ago that the Music Business itself was a horrendously profitable cash cow ... until some young upstart upset the apple cart, altered our perspective and forever changed our view of what a standard pricing model could look like for consumables. I hear they're as big as Exxon in some ways! :shock:

Food for thought, Steiny; food for thought... :?:

Talking of food, lunchtime's over ... and I've not eaten a thing!!! :roll:
Cheers,

Steve.

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Guest »

Steinberg have already made it clear that the upgrade price is voluntary.

In fact you can save money year on year by opting for maintenance updates only.

steveecrane
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by steveecrane »

cubasepadawan wrote:Steinberg have already made it clear that the upgrade price is voluntary.

In fact you can save money year on year by opting for maintenance updates only.
I'm not sure I understand either of these sentences? :D

Question 1 - Where?

Question 2 - And how?
Cheers,

Steve.

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Strophoid »

I actually read all that, and I can see where you are coming from. It's not really been an issue for me yet, since updates so far included stuff I really liked having. If the update for you is not worth its money, then I suppose the logical conclusion is to not update. Based on how things worked in the past, you should be able to upgrade to 7 from 5 at the same price as from 6 to 7, so if you so wish you could skip 6 altogether and save that money for something else.

If you disagree with their pricing, let your wallet speak :)
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Conman »

Phew! Such a lot of hot air.

That £168 will keep you going for about three years at just over £1 per week. OK two years at £1.60.
Your studio can't be up to much, mate. All that typing cost about £2 of electricity.
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Hippo »

If you are pro then you should be making this cost back with less than a days takings especially as you can claim the vat back and offset the cost 100% against tax in the uk.

If its your hobby then its up to you, no one is making you buy it and if you can get better value for your hobby budget then spend elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong in Steiny making money, if they overprice then they will have to adjust it or go bust.

Hippo
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by MarkOne »

I jumped off the upgrade treadmill a long time ago. Best thing I ever did.

I now work on the basis of buying new software when it breaks (I.e. won't run any more on whatever platform I'm currently using)

I then look at buying software like I do cars, I.e. no brand loyalty, just look at what is out there that floats my boat, has the toys I want and is in my price range.

It's a really liberating way to go, and if we all did it, I'm sure it would concentrate the minds of the developers, knowing they didn't have a ready pool of saps, sorry, current customers waiting with baited breath for the next 'great' thing.
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by The dman »

Hippo wrote:If you are pro then you should be making this cost back with less than a days takings especially as you can claim the vat back and offset the cost 100% against tax in the uk.

If its your hobby then its up to you, no one is making you buy it and if you can get better value for your hobby budget then spend elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong in Steiny making money, if they overprice then they will have to adjust it or go bust.

Hippo
Totally agreed. I've been using the comping feature on a big project and yesterday I ended up using padshop on a jingle and I wasn't even that interested in Padshop so for me the $50 is an absolute no brainer.

steveecrane, with respect ....if this is just a hobby thing and something you don't want to put much money into maybe it would be good to look at the cheaper alternatives.
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Conman »

Hippo wrote:If you are pro then you should be making this cost back with less than a days takings especially as you can claim the vat back and offset the cost 100% against tax in the uk.

If its your hobby then its up to you, no one is making you buy it and if you can get better value for your hobby budget then spend elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong in Steiny making money, if they overprice then they will have to adjust it or go bust.

Hippo
I'll quote this a lot methinks. Good, realistic sense.
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Puma0382 »

Conman wrote:
Hippo wrote:If you are pro then you should be making this cost back with less than a days takings especially as you can claim the vat back and offset the cost 100% against tax in the uk.

If its your hobby then its up to you, no one is making you buy it and if you can get better value for your hobby budget then spend elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong in Steiny making money, if they overprice then they will have to adjust it or go bust.

Hippo
I'll quote this a lot methinks. Good, realistic sense.
Totally agree... Good post Hippo.

Oh, and hope the OP left time for some actual lunch...
System 1:- Win10 64bit, Gigabyte H81M m/board, Intel i7 4790 3.6Ghz, 16Gb RAM, NVIDIA GTX 750 Ti, 2 x 22" HD monitors; Steinberg UR44; Cubase Pro v10.5.20, WaveLab Pro v10.0.40, Studio One v4.6.1, Dorico Elements v3.5.10, Addictive Drums 2, Komplete 12, StylusRMX

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by twilightsong »

Hippo wrote: There is nothing wrong in Steiny making money, if they overprice then they will have to adjust it or go bust.

Hippo
+1
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Guest »

The dman wrote: if this is just a hobby thing and something you don't want to put much money into maybe it would be good to look at the cheaper alternatives.
+1 i couldn't agree more , im a hobbyist and as far as im concerned any hobby costs , wheather its shooting ,golf ,cards ,football .
I to am a long term user and i admit it's a *quiz* off having to pay out more for an update but that thought passes and i chooose update because it's a hooby i absolutly could not live without feeding my adiction but that said it has to be the very best software , no cheapo stuff , ive tought people before and they moved to logic and protools and thought i was made staying with steingberg.Im glad i did . ;)
The choice is yours in the end dude no one is forcing you to buy the .5 and im sure steiny are going to carry on releasing updates for use to play with .
Last edited by Guest on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

steveecrane
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by steveecrane »

I genuinely take no issue with those who want to remain on this particular upgrade-or-be-damned treadmill - that is, as someone observed, their choice - but I'd love for Steinberg (or an informed forum member) to defend such a position in a logical fashion based on fact, rather than relying on hyperbole, rhetoric, supposition, emotion or insult.

My admittedly long-winded (and wholly cathartic) point was simple: for a mere upgrade, this is expensive ... as are most things to do with Cubase, ProTools and (to a lesser extent of late) Logic. To bundle 'new stuff' in a relatively 'minor' update (which never used to happen in the good ole days) allows Steinberg to justify charging (more) for it, whether you like/want/need it or not.

This is a hobby for me nowadays - as it is, I suspect, for many of us - albeit an expensive one ... but, nevertheless, one I continue to enjoy. Likewise my MTB'ing. Both have an element of the emperor's new clothes about them in terms of the outlay required to remain current. As with both, you simply don't have to keep up with the Joneses to be effective practitioners - skill always outwits gear, which is probably why I fall off a bike costing several grand all-too-often! :(

Whilst I have a lengthy investment in Cubase and a sizeable investment in a custom-built and rather well-equipped personal studio (despite all the speculation to the contrary) I don't enjoy getting ripped off. And simple maths (amortising the virtual repayment over several years) doesn't make the situation any easier to swallow. My expendable income competes in the real-world with family pressures and necessities such as mortgages, insurance, school bills, holidays, meals out and gifts and suchlike, all of which, rightfully, are given more precedence than Retrologue, Padshop, MorphFilter or "...more insane tones for your guitar" these days! ;)

As an exercise, try actually defending some of what we musicians spend on (relatively expensive) software to a lay-person; your loved one, perhaps. If you find it slightly difficult getting them to understand, then perhaps your latest acquisition isn't actually worth it! After all, did the Beatles, Stones or The Who have 'comping' or the ability to "...blend seamlessly between two filter curves...", let alone a mulitplicity of tracks with vintage compressors and bit-perfect reverbs on every channel!?

Many of the new features and functionality we've paid through the nose for - sorry, invested in - have simply made us lazy, compensating for a lack of practice and ability, a lack of time-based investment, and a lack of natural talent. This is an outcome some have called the democratisation of music (it's something I refer to as "The Simon Cowell Effect"!).

As I made clear, I have all the plug-ins I'll ever need (not want, mind you, but need) from UAD to Korg, Waves to NI ... and, of course, my Spectrasonics' babies! This upgrade borders on profiteering. I don't mind any company making money; in fact, I actually want Steinberg to make money as ultimately this protects my investment. However, as with our beloved bankers, what I want, what I expect - what I demand - is for the money they make to contain a significant element of value too, such that I can justify it leaving my pocket and entering Yamaha's coffers. Pricing which is based solely on what the market can stomach is morally indefensible, IMHO.

And if I had any inkling that I was contributing towards better customer service or more reliable software, then I might be able to justify such a purchase, ahem, sorry, upgrade. As it is, 30+ years of experience in this game indicates otherwise. (Yup, I started with a Commodore 64 with tape back-up and an Atari with only a floppy drive, and composed my best stuff then!)

I wasn't debating this from the position of whether I could eventually make it pay - or even if I could ever afford it in the first instance - rather from the observation that upgrades from Steinberg (and other major players) keep creeping up whereas the returns appear to be getting ever smaller. I might be wrong - it's not an exact science. Nor was I considering personal choice either: I'm not bloody stupid - I know it's my choice! Well, mine and the wife's if truth be told! :lol:

I was hoping my whinge would, whilst being a personal catharsis, stimulate some constructive debate and a meaningful response from Steinberg/Yamaha. Not necessarily a verbal one articulated here either, but one which involves a little more effort in terms of their pricing model and recognising that more VSTi's are not enough of a justification or even remotely sufficient for most experienced musicians.

By-the-way, have you ever noticed there's always some rude, self-righteous ignoramus on any forum - someone who believes they can elevate their own position simply by being boorish and contrary and making unsubstantiated conjecture ... usually accompanied by a meagre attempt at humour in the vain attempt at diffusing any ensuing fallout? :roll:
Conman wrote:Phew! Such a lot of hot air.

That £168 will keep you going for about three years at just over £1 per week. OK two years at £1.60.
Your studio can't be up to much, mate. All that typing cost about £2 of electricity.
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've found ours ... and this one owns a calculator! :lol:

Don't you just love people who exercise freedom of speech in order to make up for the freedom of thought, which they appear to avoid at all costs? :lol:

PS Oh, and I type fast.
Cheers,

Steve.

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by fizbin »

That translates to $264 US. That is a little steep. I paid $150 + tax to go from Cubase 4 to Cubase 6, then another $50 to get to 6.5, so about $220 US after tax to go from Cubase 4 to Cubase 6.5. Whether we upgrade from Cubase 4 or 5 I think is irrelevant under the current model.

Just sayin'

Why would you be paying more in the UK? Is your VAT tax that high (~32%), or is the price you quote before tax?

I'm more inclined to skip versions when upgrading these days. Quite happy with the 6.x stuff so I'll probably be able to suffer through until v8, unless v7 writes songs for me.
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Conman »

UK pricing has 20% vat added and is gross not the net price.

And it is redeemable if your company also is vatable for it's products as is (part of or whole depending) the cost of the outlay for equipment and expenses.

And, again I see I only offend by pointing out the obvious.
Long posts screaming "Robbery!" are pretty offensive when most DAWs are pretty fairly priced and if you want to shout robbery there are much more effective sites to complain than at the "offenders" site.
I mean, if they really are robbing you this is exactly where they would hide you from the rest of the world.
Otherwise it's just another griefing which the forum rules do not allow.

What's the point of telling us? Go out, tell your friends. Tell a newspaper. What is sad is to see an individual with a grief go to such effort for nothing.
I suppose you got it off your chest but did it have to include getting it off the rest of your anatomy too? Most of us got it after the first para. Then fell asleep. :mrgreen:
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by steveecrane »

First off:
Conman wrote:And it is redeemable if your company also is vatable
No company, just me these days. :cry:


Secondly:
Conman wrote:What's the point of telling us?
I can't keep repeating this if no one is prepared to consider it - the desire was to stimulate meaningful debate, alongside my catharisis. Gotta start a revolution somewhere. :!:


Thirdly:
fizbin wrote:when most DAWs are pretty fairly priced
Agreed! For what they deliver, the price of a DAW represents truly spectacular value! Absolutely no debate there. When I used to lecture in Music Tech, I used to try to explain to my students that they really don't know how good they'd got it these days (yup, I'm old too).

I remember when a cassette tape-based 4-track Tascam costed upwards of £1,000 and a B16 was the price of a terraced house in a dodgy area! Now you get a compete studio in a box for less than that! Fantastic value ... just not the subsequent upgrades, IMHO. A couple of VSTi's which have been around for a decade or more and some repackaged workflow nonsense (which now kinda works) priced at one-third the amount of a complete DAW! How's that meant to represent value?

This thread is (or so I thought) about update prices (which now have the misnomer "upgrade" associated with them as they're for X.5 mid-term version updates too). It's nothing to do with the capital outlay required in the first instance and everything to do with the continued spend your initial choice necessitates. :roll:


Fourthly:
fizbin wrote:What's the point of telling us? Go out, tell your friends. Tell a newspaper.
Err, because you lot are (supposed to be) interested parties, the ones who are gonna spend their hard-earned spondoolis on this gear, that's why. Funny, I've seldom stumbled upon such affluent musicians, ones who are so flush with cash they're quite happy to pay through the nose for the tangible tools of their trade, let alone ethereal software. The average Daily Mail reader doesn't even know where to turn a computer on, let alone make music with one, so why proselytise there!? :lol:


Fifthly:
Conman wrote:Otherwise it's just another griefing
and "
Conman wrote:...go to such effort for nothing.
Yes, it was personal and I am somewhat aggrieved; however, the message I'm articulating is concerned with value. As to "effort" - what effort? Typing? Hmmm. Hardly.

Look, I agree with the oft-quoted Ruskin maxim "There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey." That's how I've run all my business interests over the years. I genuinely pity the man who knows the price of everything and yet the value of nothing (bit of mis-quoted plagiarism there!).

I suppose I was hoping there were more people who shared with me this thought:
"Any business arrangement that is not profitable to the other person will, in the end, prove unprofitable for you. The bargain that yields mutual satisfaction is the only one that is apt to be repeated."
Finally: "
fizbin wrote:Most of us got it after the first para. Then fell asleep.
I'm so glad to see the arts of discussion and debate are alive and kicking. Reading maketh a full man; discussion a ready man; writing an exact man. I'm not convinced much reading has taken place.

Welcome to the thought-provoking world of Rupert Murdoch, Hello! magazine and the National Enquirer, where a sentence is a knoll, a paragraph a hill, and a little considered opinion a mountain not to be climbed in full mountaineering regalia but walked round in the shorts and T-shirt of unsophisticated rebuttal. :lol:

Ah well, I tried ...
Cheers,

Steve.

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Strophoid
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Strophoid »

It's not your fault, really good discussions never last long here, seems you didn't even get a chance :?
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by goddfodder »

Y'know I wasn't shocked (as intended) by the number £168. I mean I guess it is a lot but you aren't buying sweets. Im sure, after significant time on C4, a week or two on C6 and you'd never look back. It genuinely is a pleasure to use. I'm not sure, however much I tried to justify it, if I could ever get my girlfriend to agree with that. However I played it, there's noooo way in the world she'd agree to over half my purchases. But in this instance, would she have a point? I guess my answers no. Some things certain people (other halves usually) were destined to just never understand nor appreciate. Some things have certain value to one person that to the next is simply laughable. I guess you (the OP and your Mrs) just don't value Cubase as much as the next guy. But that's your choice.

This latest update,... well to be honest i agree with a lot of what you've said. I'm not exactly doing cartwheels or anything. A few of the fx plugins looked quite cool and i wouldn't mind checking them out. Perhaps the changes to Amp Rack could be interesting. But I also understand that people who take 6.5 now will pay less for 7. So this actually is simply an option for users to spread the cost, should they want to upgrade to the latest version when it comes out. Its a little chance to sample some of what the future holds. No where have Steinberg said that they were raising their prices. For me, I think if this thing sounds stable in a couple of weeks, one night (when the Mrs is out) ill bite the bullet and get 6.5. At the end of the day its half the cost of a night out. A meal and drinks even. I don't think its a lot of money in a lot of people's eyes. There's not much here to write home about. I bet your postman's relieved. ;)

The way this thing was done was a real surprise and was different from what everyone was used to. I don't think paying for anything is truly ideal for anyone. I think I was actually one of the first to say hold on a minute, this isn't great. It is however, the way Steinberg has chosen to charge for their product. And that's all there is to it. This stuff has to be paid for one way or the other. And this is just how they've chosen to go about it. But there's no crime being committed. Simply change. Some people don't like change, some love it. For some (Like me) it takes a bit of getting used to. But I guess its a fact of life.
Cubase 7/6/5/4 ~ i7 950 ~ Asus P6X58D-E ~ 12Gb DDR3 1600Mhz ~ ATI Radeon HD 5850 ~ 2T Samsung ~ Akasa Nero S ~ Win 7 (64) ~ Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 ~ Yamaha KX 25, Yamaha KX 49, Novation Impulse 61.~ Yamaha HS80's.

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Dynamic Mike »

MarkOne wrote:I then look at buying software like I do cars, I.e. no brand loyalty, just look at what is out there that floats my boat, has the toys I want and is in my price range.

It's a really liberating way to go, and if we all did it, I'm sure it would concentrate the minds of the developers, knowing they didn't have a ready pool of saps, sorry, current customers waiting with baited breath for the next 'great' thing.
I couldn't agree more with the 'brand loyalty' statement. People on forums, apparently blinded to any flaws or shortcomings by a self-imposed duty to defend any product they own, always show a knee-jerk reaction to valid criticism. This forum seems to display a disproportionate number of such jerks, but otherwise it's hardly unique. I've seen this attitude repeated since I started buying Crash magazine for Spetrum 48k users. They fail to appreciate that different people make vastly differening demands on software products & everyone's workflow is affected to a different degree by changes/flaws/bugs.

However, I think where your analogy falls down slightly is that when you buy a different brand of car you basically get pedals, levers and a wheel in pretty much the same place and with pretty much the same function as your previous car. I don't stay loyal to Cubase because of the money I've invested over the years, I couldn't give a monkeys about that, it's the time I've invested accruing knowledge specific to Cubase that keeps me coming back. But I'm beginning to wonder whether the time I spend repairing projects in C6 wouldn't be better invested in learning a new DAW. I'm here because I'm lazy, not because I'm loyal.

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Bane »

Yes, the updates are bringing more toys than useful tools; but then again, how are they gonna keep the kids busy? :mrgreen:
Asus R500A-RS52, Windows 8, 2.6gHz i5 -3230M, 6GB RAM,

Cubase Artist 7.0.6, Wavelab Elements 7, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, The Grand 3, Melodyne Essential, Superior Drummer, EZDrummer and Pop! EZX, Samson CO1, Yamaha P-35, Mackie MR5mk2 monitors, and more....

My tunes on: Soundcloud

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Guest »

Steve Fogal wrote:I've bought one Cubase version and not upgraded because it has served me well for years and I didn't scratch the service of all the fancy things Cubase do
You are using a version that has eLc so it can't be anything prior to Cubase SX.

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Paul Bryce
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Paul Bryce »

cubasepadawan wrote:
Steve Fogal wrote:I've bought one Cubase version and not upgraded because it has served me well for years and I didn't scratch the service of all the fancy things Cubase do
You are using a version that has eLc so it can't be anything prior to Cubase SX.
Are you sure about that ?.....
Near the Rockies, Alberta

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Guest »

Paul Bryce wrote:Are you sure about that ?.....
This article explains how to obtain an actvation code for an older Cubase VST version to run on a newer eLicenser "dongle" https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/kn ... -port.html

I think it was asked in another post "what color is your dongle" so anyone posting here must have had a blue colored dongle otherwise a license could not have been transferred and as such they'd not have access to the lounge.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

goddfodder
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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by goddfodder »

Steve Fogal wrote: I've bought one Cubase version and not upgraded because it has served me well for years and I didn't scratch the service of all the fancy things Cubase doo ...hmmm...sounds like a blues song title :)
Whilst I can understand that if your slow to scratch the SURFACE you may want to take some time to explore a particular version of Cubase, I think you have to agree that if every single Steinberg customer took a similar stance, there would be no Cubase to explore.
Cubase 7/6/5/4 ~ i7 950 ~ Asus P6X58D-E ~ 12Gb DDR3 1600Mhz ~ ATI Radeon HD 5850 ~ 2T Samsung ~ Akasa Nero S ~ Win 7 (64) ~ Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 ~ Yamaha KX 25, Yamaha KX 49, Novation Impulse 61.~ Yamaha HS80's.

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Re: Upgrade Pricing - Money For Old Rope?

Post by Guest »

Steve Fogal wrote:It is not any one user's responsibility to worry about what all the other kids do, nor to keep upgrading 'just because' and/or on the basis that Steinberg needs a constant cash flow from each of us just so they can be paid to make new versions.
As Mr M said, and I agree completely, I want development of Steinberg products to continue.

I don't have a problem with newbies, younglings or anyone else for that matter purchasing, upgrading or for any other reason buying steinberg products, so long as the resources are there to support ongoing development, it is not any users' duty to dissuade users from purchasing.

In other words there is a vested interest in my being happy to help people new to the program, which is a lot more than what I can say for some others.

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