[FR] Direct monitoring : Track playback mixed with Input signal before Punch In

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Helidream
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[FR] Direct monitoring : Track playback mixed with Input signal before Punch In

Post by Helidream »


.
Actually it is not possible to have Direct Monitoring working like this : monitor the track playback mixed with the input signal before a punch in.
This need some more or less heavy workarounds. (The limitation is the same if using Software Monitoring).


Such a monitoring option is mandatory for a comfortable recording session : it is very desirable to have it when making punch ins so that the performers we can hear the sound of the previous take to play over and get the same feeling and performance level at the punch in point.

It would be desirable to have this option, preferably independently for each track, the same as we have it on well known studio recording consoles since decades.

Adding a level control for the direct monitoring signal, independent from the track playback level, would be desirable as well.


For example with could use the control modifier key to enable track playback + input monitoring when clicking on the monitor button of a track, or better a menu when clicking on this button to select the monitoring mode.

For each track we could choose those monitoring modes from the monitor button :

- manual
- while record enabled
- while record running
- tape machine style
- track playback + input -> to be added

Another very interesting option would be to be able to select as well Direct Monitoring or Software Monitoring in this menu. I will open another thread to discuss this.


There are some more or less heavy workarounds, the later the heavier.

1) open an extra track just for monitoring (selecting manual monitoring mode in preferences, enable the monitor button on a not record enabled track, do not enable the monitor button on another record enabled duplicated track).

2) uninstall the MR extension and use the MR Mixer along with Nuendo for monitoring

3) use an external mixer

Obviously only option 1) is doable without to much complication. It does give as well a separate volume control for the track playback level and the channel monitoring level.

Integrating option 1) in a single track design would be quite easy to do and would save engineer time and some room in the mixer during recording sessions.

Here is what is saying Avid about this issue, as the same limitation do exist in Protools :

"If you want to hear existing audio before the punch in point along with your input signal, you need to create another AUX track for the monitoring of your input signal.
Insert plugins you want on that Aux as well as on the track being recorded."


See as well this other monitoring limitation :

viewtopic.php?f=292&t=164451
Last edited by Helidream on Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.3.20.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces.
JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Fredo
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Re: [FR] Direct monitoring during playback and record

Post by Fredo »

I think I don't understand the question.
I use DM on record & playback every day.

Fredo

Helidream
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Re: [FR] Direct monitoring during playback and record

Post by Helidream »

Fredo, perhaps my english is not so clear.

Can you get input monitoring and tape playback (mixed) together for the same channel ??

You could read this thread for a better english and perhaps better understanding :

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=101652

Actually Nuendo does not allow this. The 4 available monitoring modes do not propose this :

- manual
- while record enabled
- while record running
- tape machine style

Tape machine style is almost here, but the vocalist does not hear himself when playing back the previous take. He does hear only the previous recording until the punch in is trigged. He does hear himself only during the punch in !

This monitoring capability is important as well for instruments, specially for fast guitar songs.

This capability is something very easy to do on a studio recording console since decades. And it is used very commonly during recording sessions.

For SSL 4000G or 9000K recording consoles for example, the "ready group" and "ready tape" buttons on each channel are doing what i'm describing here.


They do allow to listen for the channel input during record, or for the tape machine, or both if the two buttons are pushed.

Perhaps i'm missing something here but according to me there isn't a simply way to do that inside Nuendo without one of the workarounds described in my previous post and other threads.

I remember we were playing with that (often to explain to beginners how digital audio did change things in our work) when the digital tape machines did enter the market : because of there AD and DA converters, they were adding some latency to the signal path in input mode, causing signal phasing if both ready group and ready tape were pushed simultaneously when the machine was in stop, effectively mixing the input signal with the delayed output of the AD-DA tape machine converters :)
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.3.20.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces.
JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Fredo
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Re: [FR] Direct monitoring during playback and record

Post by Fredo »

Helidream wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:15 am


Tape machine style is almost here, but the vocalist does not hear himself when playing back the previous take. He does hear only the previous recording until the punch in is trigged. He does hear himself only during the punch in !
Just answering this one.
Just create an "input" track for each microphone, and put that track permanently in Direct Monitoring.
Send Cue send to artist.

That way, the artist Always has "an open mike", he/she can hear what is recorded, and as soon as you punch into record, that signal will drop away.

HTH
Fredo

Helidream
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Re: [FR] Direct monitoring : Track playback mixed with Input signal before Punch In

Post by Helidream »

Yes creating a track for full time input monitoring is a solution i did explain it the initial post of this thread. This is the well known workaround.

But this can be considered a heavy workaround for something that could be done in software without adding an audio track.
If you do that you end up with three Mixer slots for a single mic input : the input channel slot plus 2 audio tracks.

More adding a track for that is not intuitive at all for this purpose and it take room in mixer and resources in the CPU / graphic engine. More it ask for plugin duplication.

As i said this other thread, a menu available on each track monitor button could directly offer this possibility, and greatly expand the monitoring capability as we can find in studio recording console :

Monitoring input selection mode
- manual input monitoring
- while record enabled
- while record running
- tape machine style
- input mixed with playback -> This mode is not yet available
---------------------------
Monitoring mode
- Software Monitoring
- Direct Monitoring (mute channel input after channel pre -> no sends and no inserts usable)
- Direct Monitoring (mute channel input just before output routing or before cues -> sends and inserts usable)


Reaper for example do have such a menu for each track, and the color of the input monitor button is changing, depending the selected mode :

Image
Attachments
reaper.png
Reaper input monitoring menu
(19.37 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.3.20.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces.
JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

Helidream
Junior Member
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:19 pm
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Re: [FR] Direct monitoring : Track playback mixed with Input signal before Punch In

Post by Helidream »

.
As a side note, basic entry level audio interface do allow this :

They do have an analog mixer knob on the front panel effectively mixing the analog input signal with the playback signal. So you get full time input monitoring without complication and you can set the amount of direct signal you want in the headphones.

Some other basic interfaces do have a Direct Monitor switch that does the same thing, but with a fixed mix ratio of 50/50.

So it seems to me abnormal that high end DAW software used with high end audio interfaces of the same brand (MR816CSX, UR824, Yamaha Nuage I/O interfaces...) cannot replicate this without complication (without creating another audio track dedicated to input monitoring).

So basically we need the capability to mix input monitor with track playback, and get independent level control for both signals. This should be managed on a single audio track slot.
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.3.20.
MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces.
JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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