Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Romantique Tp »

It sounds like you didn't read your own thread at all.

And BTW, this thread illustrates well why so many companies avoid saying much on their own forums. There's a big difference between stating your opinion on the matter and repeatedly confronting someone who's just trying to give you a status update, like some people were doing a few pages back.

One of Steinberg's employees (I think it was Dave Nicholson) was a frequent poster back in the Cubase.net/Nuendo.com days. He had to deal with confrontational behavior from other users constantly when he posted. He eventually just stopped posting.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu »

I'm being too confrontational? Everything I've said felt pretty level-headed to me.

Also, I have to disagree with you. Lack of communication from Steinberg is part of the problem.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by MattiasNYC »

umfufu wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:26 am
I'm being too confrontational? Everything I've said felt pretty level-headed to me.
Yeah, I have no idea either where that came from.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Romantique Tp »

umfufu wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:26 am
I'm being too confrontational? Everything I've said felt pretty level-headed to me.
The second part of my post is referring to the posts by other people a few pages back, not what you just posted. Timo came here to explain the relationship between Cubase and Nuendo and the future of Nuendo, not to argue with users and justify things. Things didn't get particularly ugly in this thread, but some people did try to push certain points a biiit too hard and I hope that doesn't stop Timo from telling us more about Nuendo's development in the future.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu »

Okay, but when you start posts with:
It sounds like you didn't read your own thread at all
I would contend that it is you being confrontational towards me.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by In_Stereo »

The take-home of all of this, which I hope Steinberg takes very clearly to heart, is that composers like me and umfufu and plenty of others will not buy (or continue to use in some cases) Nuendo...but we would if it was up-to-date with Cubase. Steinberg is losing lots of money here, because there is a big price difference that we are willing to pay, but we are not willing to pay for a product that is always behind the much cheaper Cubase in key ways for music (and for post, even -- Cubase is totally stable and has GUI features and general improvements that are simply superior to the current state of Nuendo).

I want very badly to use the extra features in Nuendo because then I would have a DAW that is as top-of-the-line a product as Pro Tools is. Cubase suffers without some of the advanced features that are without a single doubt NOT only for post-production, but of huge and very specific use to composers as well (which, technically, very much is post-production when working with picture). VR features can indeed be very much needed for composers as well.

To me there is no logical way to argue against this point. The two products must be aligned to be on the same release schedule. Leapfrogging would even possibly make some sense if it were Nuendo leading the way since it's hugely more expensive, but the other way around just doesn't make any logical sense to me from a business standpoint. As umfufu said, it only serves to give Steinberg resentful customers for very understandable reasons, which could very well not keep many of those users loyal to the company and its product.
Last edited by In_Stereo on Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by ChrisPolus »

I was very grateful for Timo coming to the forums, explaining Steinberg's path and plans. It gives us insight into what we can expect in the future (1-2 years) and make our decisions if the path Steinberg has chosen suits us or doesn't. He explained so much and answered so many questions, which I haven't seen him do as long as I'm on this forum. I hope he'll be on more often and get into a discussion. After all, we're also customers and Steinberg's building Nuendo for their customers. I would like to think our opinion matters for the development.

Since these are user forums I think it's fair if people state their opinion on what they like and don't like, what they need and what they hope for. It's one channel back to Steinberg an the company can consolidate all feedback and see what direction they might take Nuendo in the more distant future.

It's great to hear Steinberg's increasing their staff! More manpower will come in really handy in the longer term, hopefully resulting in more stable releases _and_ more features. Maybe even features that aren't a priority at the moment because it was not possible with current staff, such as a solid UI redesign. I guess it's hard to get good audio engineers and programmers in Germany, where there is a lots of demand for them (Ableton, Bitwig, Logic teams are all in Germany I think). Then again, it's Germany, the land of the engineering... I also liked some of the information Timo gave us because I have the feeling it's going in the right direction. They're thinking about new UI concepts because Timo said they are aware of Nuendos inconsistencies. And a more modern take on anti-piracy measures are being checked out, I hope it's going to be the end of the eLicenser dongle. So that made me hopeful. We'll see.

But I think, as some of you pointed out, some of Steinberg's concepts of "users" just doesn't fit anymore. Dividing them into composers (use Cubase) and audio-post people (use Nuendo) for example. Back in the days maybe there were more composers who only did music and only seldomly a few sound effects here and there. And then there were the big post houses with studios that only mixed and did audio-post for movies, because back in the day, audio-post was a more exclusive "club" and you needed huge hardware and studios. Like with photography. Maybe there was one person in town who had a camera 60 years ago. Nowadays, everybody and their brothers _and_ sisters have a really great cam in their phones. You can mix cinema movies on your laptop today. And with more and more home studios, project studios, small studios that try to cope with all kinds of formats, this distinction (composer / audio post) is often impossible to make. Many have to do all of it! Compose music, add sound effects, mix in 5.1, 7.1, YouTube, 4K, VR360 and so on. Maybe even the website and server administration. Thus I think this divide between Cubase and Nuendo was maybe practical in the past, but it's becoming more and more obsolete. Timo explained they could not just merge Cubase and Nuendo because many features worked differently, VCAs being one of them. But to add another customer voice for Steinberg to base their decisions upon, I'd say, for their users, they should really think about merging their procudt lines long term and make Cubase their music flagship, and then on top of that add additional audio-post and game audio features to Nuendo.

As many of you said, if you're forced to jump back and forth, buy 2 licenses, make decisions what software you do your project with, and for many that's a reality here, something isn't right in my opinion. So in a longer-term vision, from my customer perspective, it would make tremendous sense starting to think about a new, common base for both products and merge the lines. Timo said it's built off of a common DAW core, which then gets implemented into the different product lines. Cubase and Nuendo use the same core, but what's built on top is branched and cannot be merged today. Well, it might not be practical and feasible today, but Steinberg should think about it and solve some hard engineering problems for their customers.

I currently can't think of any other software that has such a gap. All other DAWs have smaller and bigger versions, all derived from the same core. Bigger and more expensive versions have more content, more functions, more of everything. But none of the bigger versions is based on another development branch and lacks functionality of the smaller version.

Something to think about. Maybe a management off-site would be a good idea ;) Brainstorm: "What would it take to merge Cubase and Nuendo."
Last edited by ChrisPolus on Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu »

Really well said to both of you. I agree 100%.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by ChrisPolus »

In_Stereo wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:50 am
Steinberg is losing lots of money here, because there is a big price difference that we are willing to pay, but we are not willing to pay for a product that is always far behind the much cheaper Cubase in key ways for music...
Somehow this struck me like lightning just now. You know we're all hunters and gatherers. We crave for the best technology out there. If there's an upgrade, a bigger, better version, we're considering it. Some people just want to have the best and most expensive. From this perspective, @In_Stereo hit the nail on the head. It makes no business sense to me that there is no upgrade path from Cubase to Nuendo.

Cubase is popular, a cash cow (many more musicians than audio post people), and has lots of versions from very affordable to pricey. There's Cubasis, Cubase Elements, Cubase Artist, Cubase Pro. Every bigger Cubase version has more content, more integrated plugins, and more functionality in the DAW. But the price point stops at €559.

IF Nuendo had the same capabilities, was made from the same code base, would come out at the same time as Cubase, had all its new features and specific additional features for audio post: edit mode, surround panners, cycle markers batch export (for adaptive music in games) etc... Imagine how many more people would not think twice and take the upsell to Nuendo!

But because Nuendo is a different branch, often lags behind, does not have all the features from Cubase, it's a one way street. People have to make choices: "Can I do this project with Cubase? Or do I need Nuendo? And if I bought Nuendo, do I use Nuendo or Cubase for this project? Why do I have to decide? Why do I have to pay for both to have all the features Steinberg offers and even then jump back and forth between those two?"

There's good research out there that if people have too many options, when there are too many choices to make and differences in products, if it's not easy and clear like "The more expensive product is better than the cheaprer one", people tend to choose nothing at all. They just can't decide. Nuendo is anything but an easy decision. Not only is it a LOT more expensive so one would think you'd get triple the functionality of Cubase, which you don't. But with Nuendo, at the same time you lose functionality over Cubase. It sometimes lags behind in general functionality, features, GUI, bug fixes and patches, because of the asynchroneous way those packages are being developed. It's a mess for customers.

And for Steinberg, it's a huge missed upsell opportunity. It doesn't make customers feel they have the flagship product when they opt for Nuendo and spend additional €1800. It makes them angry the moment they realize they have to make that choice.
Last edited by ChrisPolus on Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Rickard »

Very well stated.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by goodbyenine »

It's a shame certain uses and moderators need to post loaded comments.

This is an interesting thread and it would be great if some one form Steinberg development team would respond.

I also feel that I have invested heavily in multiple Nuendo licenses and upgrades over many years to find myself wondering why my "flagship" software is running so slowly graphically.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Turnicate99 »

Count me in as another Cubase user who definitely will not upgrade to Nuendo, but definitely would upgrade if it were on par with Cubase with features and fixes. Why would I want to backwards with Nuendo in many ways? Why should I need to make that kind of choice when I just want to best-featured and best-working DAW from Steinberg for my paid everyday work? I'm sorry Timo, but it's simply a bad business model (I come from a family of very successful business owners, so it's very clear to me).

I agree with some of the others who are saying that Steinberg is losing money with this...they are definitely losing money. To think that composers and musicians don't need so many of the post-production features in Nuendo is simply not accurate. Also, to think that those composers and musicians (and post-production people, I would think???) are happy with a Nuendo that is always far behind Cubase in all other ways like bug fixes, GUI, improved features, etc., is also not thinking correctly.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by deneverstudio »

Turnicate99 wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:14 pm
Count me in as another Cubase user who definitely will not upgrade to Nuendo, but definitely would upgrade if it were on par with Cubase with features and fixes. Why would I want to backwards with Nuendo in many ways? Why should I need to make that kind of choice when I just want to best-featured and best-working DAW from Steinberg for my paid everyday work? I'm sorry Timo, but it's simply a bad business model (I come from a family of very successful business owners, so it's very clear to me).

I agree with some of the others who are saying that Steinberg is losing money with this...they are definitely losing money. To think that composers and musicians don't need so many of the post-production features in Nuendo is simply not accurate. Also, to think that those composers and musicians (and post-production people, I would think???) are happy with a Nuendo that is always far behind Cubase in all other ways like bug fixes, GUI, improved features, etc., is also not thinking correctly.
Exactly.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by twelvetwelve »

+1 from me too. Nuendo is so far behind on features these days yet Cubase omits functionality under the guise of it being post related. It's a bit of a rock and a hard place with both pieces of software being crippled.

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu »

twelvetwelve wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:34 pm
+1 from me too. Nuendo is so far behind on features these days yet Cubase omits functionality under the guise of it being post related. It's a bit of a rock and a hard place with both pieces of software being crippled.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by DTSR »

ChrisPolus wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:26 pm
In_Stereo wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:50 am
Steinberg is losing lots of money here, because there is a big price difference that we are willing to pay, but we are not willing to pay for a product that is always far behind the much cheaper Cubase in key ways for music...
We crave for the best technology out there. If there's an upgrade, a bigger, better version, we're considering it. Some people just want to have the best and most expensive.
Yeah, and so you have the privilege of paying to be a beta tester, it's a joke. But that's the software sector, they can get away with flogging stuff that isn't finished/doesn't work as it should i.e. 'broken,' and say, "oh fixes are on the way." What they really mean is, "we are understaffed, have tragic project management capabilities, but have to charge you for this stuff so we can make sure there's enough operating revenue to stay afloat."

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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by tepa »

I haved switch to Nuendo from Cubase few months ago, and i haven't notice any differences in my work flow, except that there is more needed features than Cubase, i have no idea but maybe it will be the same feeling for many Cubase users that would switch to Nuendo.

What happen if Cubase would stop development and slowly be replace by a Nuendo Artist, Elements or what ever limited option Nuendo's version... ? There is probably some differences in some area, but does it going to be noticed by the majority of users or completely disturb their work flow ?

I did the switch with the big discount, but sure i really hesitated because of that delay schedule between the 2 products, but some Nuendo's features were really needed to my work.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by profdraper »

umfufu wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:59 pm
Really well said to both of you. I agree 100%.
Ditto: get on with it and just make a Cubendo.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by ChrisPolus »

profdraper wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:47 pm
Ditto: get on with it and just make a Cubendo.
Just, please, don't use that name, though ;)
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by umfufu »

"Cubase Post"!
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by profdraper »

ChrisPolus wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:18 am
profdraper wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:47 pm
Ditto: get on with it and just make a Cubendo.
Just, please, don't use that name, though ;)
Ha! Has to be simply Cubase I'd say - add the obvious post-, film & AAF etc. That 'bounce' audio to vid with regions (cringe ....) yadayada. Yep, I'm bored too with maintaining both Nuendo & Cubase ... at the present C9.5 to N8.1, there's not presently a lot of reason to be using Nuendo for me ... until the next 8.5 and off we go again. Unnecessarily distracting and a PITA.

Related, also have Wavelab and that as an addition to Cubase (or Nuendo) is also another way to 'see' the suite with round tripping to Wavelab etc. From th-s point of view, its almost as if Cubase could do with its own 'NEK' except it would be for post features. Still, some of Cubase right now is artificially crippled by comparison to many competitors because of the 'artificial' lack of post- features that appear to be enforced, simply because of distinction between the two programs /price-points.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by davebtw »

So it is time for me to upgrade from my Nuendo 4 system. The cost to upgrade to Nuendo 8 is actually more than a new license of Cubase Pro 9.5. My work is live choral and orchestra recording, then mixdown for CDs or online playback. I don't do videos, or games. Should I just upgrade to Cubase and be done with it? Or is it time to move to a new tool?
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by In_Stereo »

davebtw wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:06 pm
So it is time for me to upgrade from my Nuendo 4 system. The cost to upgrade to Nuendo 8 is actually more than a new license of Cubase Pro 9.5. My work is live choral and orchestra recording, then mixdown for CDs or online playback. I don't do videos, or games. Should I just upgrade to Cubase and be done with it? Or is it time to move to a new tool?
I wouldn't bother with Nuendo at this point. Cubase 9.5 is ahead of it in certain key ways, and for what you're doing you wouldn't need the post-specific things Nuendo has.
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by In_Stereo »

profdraper wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:18 am
Still, some of Cubase right now is artificially crippled by comparison to many competitors because of the 'artificial' lack of post- features that appear to be enforced, simply because of distinction between the two programs /price-points.
This, indeed. Such a hugely frustrating company to be dealing with. As I've said before, I came from Pro Tools to Cubase a couple of years ago, and Pro Tools is far more advanced than Cubase with features that for some absurd reason are only in Nuendo, which is also far behind Cubase in other features. It's a mess. I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do at this point, am totally frustrated. Maybe Reaper 6 will help me make a decision when it comes out. :)
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Re: Cubase 9.5 Features in Nuendo 8 - When?

Post by Blip »

profdraper wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:18 am
Still, some of Cubase right now is artificially crippled by comparison to many competitors because of the 'artificial' lack of post- features that appear to be enforced, simply because of distinction between the two programs /price-points.
In_Stereo wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:13 am
I came from Pro Tools to Cubase a couple of years ago, and Pro Tools is far more advanced than Cubase with features that for some absurd reason are only in Nuendo [...]
I get that not having Cubase features in Nuendo is unsatisfying, but how is not having post-features in Cubase different from the Pro Tools / Pro Tools HD?
All the fancy post-stuff like Surround / Atmos / Ambisonics mixing, Field Recorder workflow, multiple video tracks and so on is HD-only, too, isn't it?

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