Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

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GargoyleStudio
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GargoyleStudio » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:22 pm

I've never hung around the UAD forum, anyone here know if there's a thread discussing this issue? I didn't see one when searching...

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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by marQs » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:44 pm

Not much fuss about it over there, I infiltratet the issue in this thread ;-)

https://uadforum.com/general-discussion ... etter.html
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GargoyleStudio » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:28 am

marQs - I saw your video, very interesting... If you create a new thread on the UAD forum specifically for this issue then I'll register and add my thoughts/findings as well.

Its not that UAD are worse than others, actually they're the same as Soundtoys, it's just that there are many many UAD plugins and because they have different characterfull sounds I tend to use 20 different plugins in a project, so that's about 1/2 of the DLL slots for Cubase used up. Waves don't suffer the same problem it seems. Arturia instruments are definitely greedy on my system, and VSTi's come under the same limit, so it's not just FX plugins which fail to load. In fact I first noticed the problem when trying to load Retrologue.

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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by marQs » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:20 am

Gargoyle Studio, I made up a thread over at the UAD forums:

https://uadforum.com/unrest-department/ ... post246470

This issue just shouldn't be there in 2017 :lol:
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by beerbong » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:02 am

mart wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:14 pm
Can every responder of this thread take time to send a complaint to support of one or more plugin manufacturers. Maybe MS - but where do you start with them!
Would be more than happy to help as I confirm others results when moving from 9.0.2 to 9.0.3. Although I am still trying to understand the issue and which plugins effects more or less.

For MS issues we should start a Feedback Hub thread and point users to support there (if not already). If there is one thread there someone could share the link or provide appropriate keywords to locate it. Then, we'll make sure Pete(from MS) knows of it and point him there too.

Secondly, I would like to hear more about how to safely disable/remove some of the Cubase startup features in order to open up more 'slots'. Would appreciate more info on that, too.

thx
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GeorgeV » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:53 am

beerbong wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:02 am
Although I am still trying to understand the issue and which plugins effects more or less.
quoting Fabio from older posts / topics
The problem is that it's not possible to define the behaviour exactly.
Dynamically linked plug-ins should be always loaded, but once the limit is actually reached, it gets temperamental and at times you can't add any more plug-ins (or can add only specific ones).
There are plug-ins that use an abnormal amount of slots.
Some VSTs do not release the FLS slots when they are removed from the project - some don't even after closing the project, meaning it is necessary to restart the application to free them up. This also means that if you load a project after closing one containing this kind of plugs, you effectively start with less slots available (possibly the reason why some reported that after quitting Cubase, a project showing the issue opens with all inserts active)
Additionally some slots might be taken by drivers or components (e.g. our UR series) or VSTs on starting the application.

This is actually way more complex than I remembered, we have several tasks related to it, it would take a week to go through all of them. Let alone fully understand them ;)


In other words, some plugins using an abnormal amount of slots make the issue worse. Still waiting someone to identify those plugins. I don't have UAD but maybe
beerbong wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:02 am
For MS issues we should start a Feedback Hub thread and point users to support there (if not already). If there is one thread there someone could share the link or provide appropriate keywords to locate it. Then, we'll make sure Pete(from MS) knows of it and point him there too.
I wouldn't expect immediate action from MS as this limit is there since forever. Also the plugin developers are responsible to at least improve things.
beerbong wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:02 am
Secondly, I would like to hear more about how to safely disable/remove some of the Cubase startup features in order to open up more 'slots'. Would appreciate more info on that, too.
again quoting Fabio
For the time being, those who have the problem can lower the amount of loaded dlls by moving some of the components out of the folder C:\Program Files\Steinberg\Cubase 9\Components. Of course, this applies only to the dlls which are not needed during use (eucon if you don't use such controllers, video files if you don't need video support, hubservice, etc - make sure to not remove any core component like Baios, the exception dumper, mediaservice, SamplerTack, stepdesigner and the VST files). This will allow for more plug-ins... not much more, but could help some of you.

euconadapter (support for Euphonix / AVID controllers)
hubservice (Steinberg Hub, without this, you will only see the Project Assistant, the Hub on the left will be missing)
omffilter (you will be unable to import OMF files)
video (all files, of course all video features will be missing)
vstconnect

Of course, if you need one or more of these features, the corresponding files can't be moved.

This won't be a huge help though :-/
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by krewmember » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:53 pm

marQs wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:35 am

Did some tests yesterday comparing to C9.

Loaded one by one just using the next in the list, the limit was at 104 indivudual plugins. Then I tested my all time favourite UAD plugins exclusively, here the limit is reached with just 31 different plugins (C9 gave me 42). Probably I could get some more by disabling hub, video etc., seems there are some more components in 9.5 that are pre-filling those 'slots'.
I can totally confirm that there is an issue and especially UAD plugins appear to be problematic.

When filling 5 inserts per track in Cubase 8.5 under Win7, this is what I get:

46 individual UAD plugins, then it´s game-over and no more individual UAD plugins can be added. Plus maybe one or two more native plugins, depending on what plugin it is and that´s about it.

I also tried the same with native-only individual plugins (Sonnox, Slate, Kush, Waves, NI, Exponential Audio, Lexicon, Relab, Eventide, Soundtoys). I stopped at 150, I probably could have added more.
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by beerbong » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:03 pm

GeorgeV wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:53 am
I wouldn't expect immediate action from MS as this limit is there since forever. Also the plugin developers are responsible to at least improve things.
I wouldn't under estimate any issues properly submitted through that hub. There is a very good track record of issues fixed even when few people report them. If lots of people can get behind it the chance does increase of solution, ofc wouldn't be until next major build or two.
Just sayin'.

thanks for quotes, actually helpful. I got rid of some of those suggested.
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by ctothel » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:41 pm

In Cubase 8.5 I'm fine, but 9.5 I can load about 11 plugins before UAD even starts preventing me to add some of Steinbergs own plugins. Then I save, open the project in 8.5 instead and everything is great. I have written UAD about this and I hope as many as possible do the same so we can speed this process up. Officialy UAD doesn't actually support Cubase 9 and it was released a good while ago.

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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by ctothel » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:46 pm

GargoyleStudio wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:22 pm
I've never hung around the UAD forum, anyone here know if there's a thread discussing this issue? I didn't see one when searching...

Mike.
Here is one: https://uadforum.com/unrest-department/ ... -only.html

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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by aaandima » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:13 am

My opinion. It makes sense to only allow a limited number of plugins to launch a single application. It is the same reasoning behind it, when it makes sense to use not just one CPU but multiple CPU's.

One should not inflate a single application too much, one should think modular.

Cubase 10 .... Would it be possible to modularize the tracks?

If there were stand-alone Cubase track modules that could be optionally run on different computers, many of these problems could be solved.

If a program requires more than 64 plugins, then the size of the entire object alone speaks in favor of modularization.
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GeorgeV » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:52 am

aaandima wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:13 am
If there were stand-alone Cubase track modules that could be optionally run on different computers, many of these problems could be solved.

If a program requires more than 64 plugins, then the size of the entire object alone speaks in favor of modularization.
Good idea, but that would be difficult to code imo.
What if when the limit is reached the extra plugins are redirected outside Cubase app? An additional app/exe that would contain those extra plugins
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by Raphie » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:00 am

what happens if you put these plugs in a chainer like Bluecat? https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/P ... PatchWork/ ?
This might solve your issue?
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by marQs » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:46 am

Raphie wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:00 am
what happens if you put these plugs in a chainer like Bluecat? https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/P ... PatchWork/ ?
This might solve your issue?
Haven't tried a recent version but remember previous versions had big problems with automation. Anyway, all crutches away - this simply should work out-of-the-box!
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GeorgeV » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:56 am

Raphie wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:00 am
what happens if you put these plugs in a chainer like Bluecat? https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/P ... PatchWork/ ?
This might solve your issue?
If someone who owns it kindly do a test.
I feel it won't solve the problem and take an additional slot or 2
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by aaandima » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:00 am

his might solve your issue?
Specfication for this "Patchwork" Plugin from BlueCat: Configurable VST, VST3 or Audio Unit plug-ins rack: host up to 64 third party plug-ins or instruments in series or parallel.

I think Bluecat has same Limit ( 128 Plugin), ( 64 slots reserved for own plugins "built-in effects".

@GeorgeV
I feel it won't solve the problem and take an additional slot or 2
But because you can Patchwork load into Patchwork self ! (new version), Bluecat has allready modularized his Plugin now .
Bluecat has modularized its tool into several instances, as I suggested for the tracks of Cubase.


https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-o ... oser-look/
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GeorgeV » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 am

@aaandima
But because you can Patchwork load into Patchwork self ! (new version), Bluecat has allready modularized his Plugin now .
Bluecat has modularized its tool into several instances, as I suggested for the tracks of Cubase.
I genuinely hope for a solution. If someone who owns Patchwork can confirm this?
It's not about the ability to load a plugin. In Cubase theoretically you can load unlimited plugins.
Its about this Windows limitation. ie the maximum dlls allowed within an app/exe/Cubase
Unless it works outside Cubase like JBridge
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by mart » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:57 pm

GeorgeV wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:52 am
aaandima wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:13 am
If there were stand-alone Cubase track modules that could be optionally run on different computers, many of these problems could be solved.

If a program requires more than 64 plugins, then the size of the entire object alone speaks in favor of modularization.
Good idea, but that would be difficult to code imo.
What if when the limit is reached the extra plugins are redirected outside Cubase app? An additional app/exe that would contain those extra plugins
Actually Fabio told me last year the programmers were looking into this idea os spawning new processes once the limit is reached. Jbridge is one way around it but its not tidy!
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by Fabio Bartolini » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:10 pm

mart wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:57 pm
Actually Fabio told me last year the programmers were looking into this idea os spawning new processes once the limit is reached. Jbridge is one way around it but its not tidy!
IIRC, I was listing some of the (theoretically) possible approaches. But I later confirmed we were moving to dynamic linking for Cubase.

While I'm at it, expect to be able to load a few more instances with 9.5.10 already. The change won't be applied immediately application-wide - meaning this first change will be marginal, but will gradually be introduced in different modules in order to be able to monitor the behaviour and get feedback from you. This will raise the limitation once complete, hopefully to the point some users won't even reach it, but as discussed previously to fully resolve the problem needs action on the VST devs side, too.

I don't expect MS to do anything to change the limitation - I have discussed at length with engineering over here and what I got from them is that the limitation makes total sense from an architectural point of view (system stability and performance).

Have a nice week-end :-)
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by marQs » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:17 pm

Nice to hear something's happening! :)
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by djgraver » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:14 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:10 pm
mart wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:57 pm
Actually Fabio told me last year the programmers were looking into this idea os spawning new processes once the limit is reached. Jbridge is one way around it but its not tidy!
While I'm at it, expect to be able to load a few more instances with 9.5.10 already.
it will happen only in 9.5 ?
i mean, i should update now, or i can wait patch for 9.0 :?:
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by mart » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:37 pm

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:10 pm
mart wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:57 pm
Actually Fabio told me last year the programmers were looking into this idea os spawning new processes once the limit is reached. Jbridge is one way around it but its not tidy!
IIRC, I was listing some of the (theoretically) possible approaches. But I later confirmed we were moving to dynamic linking for Cubase.
Thanks Fabio I hadn't heard about the shift in strategy about moving to dynamic linking. Hopefully in time that sorts this out whilst not disimproving application stability! Great news that a way forward has been decided and improvements are starting to happen.

Any ballpark on a 9.5.10 then?

Do you have a list of main 3rd party vst developers who worst affect this limitation so that we all can lodge requests for a fix? I know UAD are one.

All the best

Martin
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by GeorgeV » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:33 pm

Great news Steinberg is working on it. Let's hope 3rd party plugin developers do the same...
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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by ctothel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:08 am

So happy to see you paying attention to this. On 8.5 until I know this works better.

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Re: Vst count limit - Steinberg please do something!

Post by ctothel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:19 am

Larioso wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:24 pm
Asking Steinberg support on this a year ago to get an estimate of limitation load count - I asked:

What is a large enough project with plugins to get problems?
You could mention if it's 50, 100, 500 or 1000 plugins.

They said:
The limitation is a Windows issue, its for Microsoft to confirm the number.

I did no accept that and asked again:
They said:
"You don't need to worry as with you would be required to have a lot more RAM memory to load the necessary amount."

And I have 16 GB memory.

So that's how much Steinberg know - no wonder it does not get solved....
Well, that's weird. I can't load more than 11 UAD plugins in a project I have. CPU usage not even at 20%. This is in 9.5; I switch over to 8.5 and it seems like I can add plugins until I'm blue in the face. Everything else on my system works great so UAD problem seems a bit random..

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