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Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:02 pm
by Rob Tuley
MarkSealey wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:42 pm
(I am certainly nowhere near able to hear notes just by looking at them. Not sure if I should even try. All advice welcome!)
Well, you can probably "hear" English text just by looking at it. Doing the same with music isn't so hard as you might think. But it helps to start young, as with learning anything.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:49 pm
by MarkSealey
Rob - so you really think it's worthwhile in the long term making the effort to hear what I see?

If it is, I'll happily set aside time to do such training. It does seem like a huge hill to climb at my age :-). Thanks.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:53 pm
by ReRei
Rob Tuley wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:02 pm
MarkSealey wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:42 pm
(I am certainly nowhere near able to hear notes just by looking at them. Not sure if I should even try. All advice welcome!)
Well, you can probably "hear" English text just by looking at it. Doing the same with music isn't so hard as you might think. But it helps to start young, as with learning anything.
Due to my experiences it is never too late to learn and children don’t learn faster than adults. It always depends on the so called talent and diligence.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:57 pm
by MarkSealey
Thanks to you too, ReRei! I know you are also right. I have plenty of diligence. Ear Training apps here I come…

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:15 pm
by Rob Tuley
Children have the advantage that, unless somebody tells them, they don't decide not to even try to do something "because it's too hard".

There is a lot of junk on the web, but for common-practice tonal music this was made by professionals for students between the end of secondary school and the start of a university course, and it starts right from the beginning: http://dictation.ccdmd.qc.ca/presentation.php

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:37 am
by MarkSealey
Thanks, Rob!

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:32 am
by Mike 999
Thanks, Rob!
+1
Thanks, Rob, this looks great - I have often looked for helpful online materials on ear training and music theory but most are too elementary to be useful to those of us who already have significant musical experience and reasonable skill but lack training of a more academic sort.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:33 am
by cparmerlee
MarkSealey wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm
To put is bluntly: are most users able to compose by writing long sections of music without ever needing to hear it played back?
Beethoven did. But then his idea of composition was pretty much:

I I I I | V V V V | I I I I | V V V V |
I IV | I IV | V V V V | V V V V |
I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV | I IV I IV |
V V | V V | V V | V V |
I | I | I | I | Oooooooooooooooooone.

So I'm not sure anybody needs to hear that on playback.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:09 pm
by ReRei
That’s not true. Beethoven is much more complex.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:07 pm
by Rob Tuley
Well, Beethoven did end his 8th symphony with more than 50 bars of the tonic chord, but that was MEANT to be a joke - he said so himself.

But if the previous post was meant as a joke, it didn't work for me. Watching a jazz guitarist trying to sightread the chords for the Grosse Fuge might be more fun...

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:33 pm
by MarkSealey
I suppose the reason for my question was to get a feel for how few users (of Dorico) do (have to) employ an Edit-Listen-Edit-Listen-Edit-Listen cycle.

Otherwise more folk than apparently did would have experienced this?

I'm quite happy to be in a minority ;) .

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:27 pm
by DaddyO
There are a variety of reasons to Edit-Listen.

Some may have to do with deciding between what notes to write period, some with what notes to write across a broad orchestral spectrum, and some with deciding what combinations of instruments are best employed to achieve the desired effect. For, me sometimes it is even deciding what effect among several options I want to achieve. If I play around with my concepts they become stronger, more developed concepts. Sometimes by doing this I end up going an unexpected direction, all because of experimentation.

If many are able to compose straight out their head, more power to them. I respect them. Everyone does not share their skills. Am I going to be Beethoven redivivus? No. But I want to do what I do to the best of my (finite) capabilities.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:16 pm
by cparmerlee
DaddyO wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:27 pm
Some may have to do with deciding between what notes to write period, some with what notes to write across a broad orchestral spectrum, and some with deciding what combinations of instruments are best employed to achieve the desired effect. For, me sometimes it is even deciding what effect among several options I want to achieve. If I play around with my concepts they become stronger, more developed concepts. Sometimes by doing this I end up going an unexpected direction, all because of experimentation.
This is EXACTLY how I try to work on most projects. A few years ago (not that long ago actually) a college professor I know was advising all his students that with Finale, they should always set every instrument to piano so they could "hear the music" properly. I think that advice might have been justified in 2000. But I expect playback to be far more realistic these days.

There certainly are some techniques that the user needs to employ to help the music be easily heard; e.g. setting the stereo field properly, and maybe using a little compression to bring out inner voices. But I cannot conceive of doing an orchestration these days without realistic-sounding instruments. There are very few occasions where I need to produce a project that sounds 100% realistic (although others do have such projects, I'm sure). But I need the playback to be realistic enough to give me confidence with I am writing will sound right when played by real musicians.

My goal these days is charts that sound good the first time the band reads it, don't waste any rehearsal time, and don't need any revisions after the first reading. I can get pretty close to this goal with the current technology. There is still a lot of room for improvement in Dorico's playback, but it is good enough for me to work effectively. (And I haven't tried DP yet.)

P.S. My post about Beethoven was mostly a joke, although I consider everything between JS Bach and Tchaikovsky to be musical dark ages. My idea of torture would be to be locked in an elevator with nothing but Mozart, Vivaldi and the BeeGees. Just my opinion, of course. A lot of people like the BeeGees.

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:20 pm
by Andre
MarkSealey wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:57 pm
Thanks to you too, ReRei! I know you are also right. I have plenty of diligence. Ear Training apps here I come…
I’ve used this app a lot for ear training:

https://www.google.se/amp/s/appadvice.c ... 788573.amp

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:13 am
by pianoleo
cparmerlee wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:16 pm
P.S. My post about Beethoven was mostly a joke, although I consider everything between JS Bach and Tchaikovsky to be musical dark ages. My idea of torture would be to be locked in an elevator with nothing but Mozart, Vivaldi and the BeeGees. Just my opinion, of course. A lot of people like the BeeGees.
What’s wrong with the BeeGees?!

Re: Playback - the green line

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:42 am
by MarkSealey
Back to the original topic, appreciation to Daniel and the team: this bug has finally been squashed in 2.2.10 :-)