A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
steveparker
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Re: A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Post by steveparker » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:23 pm

Hi Sean,
I think Dorico has more chance of getting to where you want than any other notation program. I do see what you're saying but it's always the grey boundaries that will need some kind of over-ride. Some kind of mapping grid maybe? I'm still not sure though.. there are so many situations in DP or Logic where the perfect thing is to blend part of another libraries patch in etc., not mention things like pulling the reverb down.

scoredfilms
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Re: A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Post by scoredfilms » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:47 pm

Steve,

The more I read, the more I grew frustrated. The suggestion feels more like a Sibelius days solution. BUT I agree completely about the problem you are highlighting. It reveals a disconnect between notation software and intelligent music reading. I'm not talking super A.I. here. But Dorico should know that a "fast legato" patch will never EVER be something I'll tell players to do. In Notion this morning, I've had to place 50 legato markings and then make them all invisible. I keep finding ones I forgot to hide. It feels just like Sibelius CC markings. I hate it. It's taking more time to clean things up than to compose. I really hate it. First world problems... but I HATE IT!!! lol

Then the obvious hit me!

Paul,

I beg you. PLEASE consider this.

Make it possible to have some playing technique markings automatically invisible (greyed out on the screen, but not to be printed) by default. I'll never want my "fast legato" patch to show up on a score. Ever. EVER. If I never want it, Dorico should know that automatically. I think that solves my biggest complaint with the way it's done in Sibelius and Notion right now. It's less clean up work just to get the score to do what it should have been doing from the start.... looking and sounding right.

Seriously, I'll fly to London and beg if I have to! lol

Cheers!
Sean
Last edited by scoredfilms on Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scoredfilms
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Re: A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Post by scoredfilms » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:53 pm

Steve,

About pulling reverb down, I think that should be done in the PLAY tab personally. The thing about plugin automation is that it's basically just like Continuous Controller data. In every DAW they are treated the same way for user interaction. So if Dorico ever does this... and they want it to feel familiar to users, that's probably their safest route. Basically, in line with my auto-invisible-option request... don't show things in the score that players won't use... by default anyway.

Please understand that I love the input your adding here. The features are absolutely needed. But HOW they are added is what I'm most concerned with. I worked in Sibelius for years, then moved over to the DAW cause I realized I could work 100x faster. Dorico seems like it's 50% where it needs to be to get playback control to be seemless enough to escape the DAW (or Notion for me now).

-Sean

steveparker
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Re: A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Post by steveparker » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:25 pm

It's my dream to be able to work only in notation.. for a long time, I've composed in notation (mostly Finale) then played the lines live into DP or Logic. This at least gives me a pretty good initial balance, articulation and dynamics. I tend to mix in a different articulation, or patch or even sometimes a synth (rather than switch), which could be done with hidden staffs and decent automation and track folders.
I also use hidden text all the time for things like 'the talent asked for this on 4/9'.
Some way to hide and a default hide/show for custom commands. But are you also thinking that Dorico should understand (or have some way of mapping) things like 'switch to x if staccato + mp or mf + 1/16th notes quicker than c=180' ?

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Re: A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Post by scoredfilms » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:01 pm

Absolutely to both.

Auto-hide: (I'd place these according to what sounded right, but would ALWAYS want them hidden automatically)
Legato (I may mark it for players occasionally, but 99% of the times I use it for the right mock-up sound, it wouldn't actually be marked for players)
Fast Legato
Legato Reps
I also use a more pronounced legato patch I've created myself. It makes for some very convincing string mock-ups.
Timed short (1 sec) ... I use the .5 sec for Tenuto... but have no way of using the longer version or no label to give it. It would be hidden when used.
And more...

Intelligently read by Dorico:
If MUTE is on... and I'm using staccato markings... or my hidden legato marking... then trigger the right muted staccato/legato/etc.
If Mute + sul pont is on... and I use staccato, then play my muted sul pont staccato samples.
If Soft Mallets are on... and I'm using rolls via the tremolo symbol, then use the "soft rolls" articulation I have.

Some form of conditional intelligence is needed to make Dorico have automatically correct playback. All this REALLY means is that I'm doing more to setup Dorico to play it right early on... instead of more work later on in the score... in every score I write. The more I have to do to get Dorico to work right... the higher that list gets, the better off I am using paper instead of software. So it's certainly needed. But I'm not trying to speak to the best solution. I'm just trying to answer you that I think both are needed, albeit interrelated.

This boils down to something Daniel once said about software (it's becoming a favorite quote)... paraphrased: people want software to be as automatic as possible at doing what they would have done... THEN have the ability to override it where desired. Technique markings should be as intelligent as possible to my sample library in Dorico, with the option for me to override them and control the performance when it gets it wrong or when I simply have to make an exception.

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MarcLarcher
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Re: A Competent PLAY engine/tab?

Post by MarcLarcher » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:24 pm

I like "dorician" ;-)
OS X 10.14.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and music engraver (Dorico Pro 3.1.10, and Photoscore Ultimate 2020.1.14(9.0.2))
French is my native language

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