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Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:54 pm
by Romanos401
Just in case this affects anyone in the future:
viewtopic.php?f=246&t=173948

For all the organists out there that want more control over how their multi-manual setups interact with Dorico, features seem to be in the pipeline.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:57 pm
by DASW
Would this include changing Midi channels for a given stave? i.e. top stave becomes the swell or solo manual, but then changes back a few measures later to the great. I'm totally new to Dorico, but as an organist/composer it's a very necessary capability. btw: Dorico is totally amazing!!!
Thanks.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:39 pm
by Rob Tuley
You can play back different voices on a staff on different MIDI channels.

That's not "in the pipeline", it is already in version 3.0.10.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:03 pm
by DASW
That's great news, thanks for letting me know. I'm assuming channels can be changed from one voice to another at any point along the score, not simply set at the beginning and no place else?

Thanks!

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:33 pm
by Derrek
SInce the number of voices is unlimited, you will possibly find it easier to fix a channels to each voice and then substitute the voices where you need them to get the correct "stops."

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:51 am
by Daniel at Steinberg
Yes, that's the way you need to do it: one voice can be bound only to one specific endpoint, but you can have as many voices as you like, so you can use a new voice each time you need a new registration.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:54 am
by MarcLarcher
A little OT, has any of you organ players tried the new Organteq from Modartt (I think it's been out for two days now) with Dorico? I'm curious to see if it's as useful as Pianoteq…

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:28 pm
by Rob Tuley
I didn't know it was released till I saw this thread.

I've persuaded the demo to map the three organ staves in Dorico onto two manuals and pedal (at least for single voices on each staff), which is a good start. Experimenting with the demo is a bit frustrating though because when it times out after 20 minutes you tend to lose whatever configuration you had.

It looks like it should be possible to create playing techniques for stop changes etc.

For some reason the standalone player isn't generating any audio for me but IIRC I had the same problem with the standalone Pianoteq player until I did something that kicked it hard enough to make it remember what audio device it was supposed to be using. (But I've forgotten what the trick was...).

First impression of the sound: It's got a French accent. Nothing wrong with that, but other European organ building flavours are available of course :)

It's version 1.0 so no doubt the range of tone colours will grow in future updates. There is no 32' pedal in version 1, and (curious considering how French it is) no independent tierce mutation either, though there is a Cornet.

Only 10 stops per division might seem a bit miserly, but you can select any 10 from the complete list, and it has a full set of couplers.

The default reverb setting is huge and the user-contributed demos on the Modartt site seem to be using that, but that is easily changed if you don't like it.

Probably something to buy for a Christmas present. If it follows the same path as Pianoteq, it will keep improving!

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:33 am
by dwlarson
+1 and following

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:18 am
by fratveno
Speaking as a professional organist, I must say this was very disappointing soundwise. The principals and strings are totally lacking in character, and if anything, certainly not french sounding. And not very french looking (console layout) either... It is of course extremely impressive technologically, but fire up the Caen in HW as a comparison and...

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:10 pm
by Romanos401
I imagine that anyone who wants to do serious organ renders will use Hauptwerk via the vst link.

Edit: just listened to the demos and I think they are atrocious.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:39 pm
by Rob Tuley
The only demo worth listening to for an idea what it sounds like is the Modartt video. I really can't imagine why they posted the others.

Pianoteq 1.0 didn't sound very good either, compared with the latest version. I guess it will improve with time.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:57 pm
by MarcLarcher
Thanks, fellow Doricians! You've been very helpful :-)

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:22 am
by Romanos401
Marc, for what it’s worth, it’s better than general midi organ sounds accessible to most apps, so if you need something quick and dirty, it’s worth exploring. (Better than noteperformer too) But it isn’t convincing (at all) to a trained ear. If there’s something short-ish and particularly important, I’d be happy to live record something with Hauptwerk for you. The quality is exceptional.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:45 am
by Rob Tuley
If you want to compare it with HW (and the Caen sample set) you ought to consider the relative costs as well.

The basic versions of HW and the Caen samples are about 3 times the price of Organteq. The "advanced version" of HW and the full version of Caen is a lot more than that. Plus you need a PC with at least 16Gb RAM to run HW + Caen (and probably 32Gb RAM to run the maxed out options) compared with "any old laptop" for Organteq.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:48 am
by Romanos401
Fair point. By the same token, people who are very serious about sample libraries regularly pay that kind of money for their sample libraries and have multiple, so it’s not quite as crazy as it seems at first blush.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:55 am
by JesterMusician
I just tried out GrandOrgue the other day and I was quite impressed, especially considering it's free and open source. You can find free and paid sample sets online. The demos speak for themselves: https://www.piotrgrabowski.pl/instruments.html

Unfortunately, there's no VST, so getting it to work with Dorico may be a challenge.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:04 pm
by Romanos401
I think you could potentially circumvent this if you told Dorico to output midi to a specific device, and then put a physical midi cable between the midi out and midi in and tell grand orgue to listen to that midi in port. I don't use grand orgue, though, so I'm not sure what level of ability you'd have to configure which divisions get which midi signals, etc.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:41 pm
by Rob Tuley
Just to prove Organteq does work with Dorico. This needs some more work to get the bottom octave of the pedal in sync with the manuals.

I wouldn't describe the result as "atrocious" - but I wouldn't complain about calling it "a bit bland".

Bach Trio sonata No 1, first movement.
Werckmeister III temperament.
Registration:
Positif: Gambe 8, Flute Traversiere 8, Flute 4, Doublette 2.
G.O. Principal 8 + 4, Quinte 2 2/3, Doublette 2.
Ped: Principal 16 + 8.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cd9mincxmgnt6 ... 1.mp3?dl=0

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:28 am
by Romanos401
Such a marvelous trio. Fun, joyful music to listen to and to play. Rob, I agree, that sounds pretty good. Bland is perhaps a good choice. And perhaps I was a bit hyperbolic the other day; although in truth, some of the examples on their website are really not great. Among other issues there’s so much reverb you’d think it was Chartres cathedral. I realize I’m a bit jaded since I’m so used to nice HW sets (and I forgot just how expensive HW advanced is since I purchased it years ago). Contrebombarde is replete with recording upon recording that are so realistic you’d never know they were HW. It’s really mind boggling.

(Fun story: this trio was my first heavy fore into historic fingering methods. I learned it the summer before I started my masters. Got to grad school and had to promptly refinger the entire trio according to the new way shown to me. Suffice it to say: it was an exercise in patience... it was harder to UNlearn and RElearn than if I had started from scratch. To this day it’s a favorite of mine, but I still shudder when I think back to that first semester, lol.)

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:01 am
by Rob Tuley
It can certainly sound less bland than that (5 rank grand jeu mixture, 3 rank plein jeu, 5 rank cornet, some short-resonator reeds, etc) but I found it hard to get a decent non-bland balance between the divisions "straight out of the box".

There is a lot of customization possible but I haven't settled down to explore all that yet.

I'm probably going to try something with typical "formulaic French registration" next - play everything on the great, full "fonds" on all three divisions, and registration changes just mean "toggle the couplers and the reeds on and off." After all, that's the way an average 19th century French church organist would have played it :)

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:06 am
by MarcLarcher
Thanks Rob for this rendition. I don't need such instrument in my little arsenal but still, it is useful to know it exists in case I need it!

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:56 pm
by chadstaten
Hello! Organist/Composer new to this forum. I've been using Sibelius for years, but am now trying Dorico Pro 3. I think I've read through everything up until today -- am I correct that it is still not possible to 'hide empty staves' in the organ part? I am just finishing a choral setting that has big sections with no pedal. I could get the score down to fewer pages if I could hide empty pedal staves. So far, nothing I've tried has worked. Thanks.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:05 pm
by pianoleo
Chad, welcome to the forum.
To do this globally, within a whole layout, go to Layout Options (Ctrl/Cmd-Shift-L) > Vertical Spacing > Hide Empty Staves and set to "After first system" or "Always". Then tick the box immediately underneath, allowing Dorico to hide individual staves of multi-stave instruments.
If you'd rather do this locally, you can select the bar rest on the pedal stave at the start of a system, right-click and go Staff > Remove Staff. Dorico will not automatically show the stave where notes next appear (but internally it won't delete notes either); you need to do this manually by selecting whatever's on the lower manual staff, right-clicking and going Staff > Add Staff Below.

Re: Organ / Keyboard Particularities

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:05 pm
by Romanos401
One other thing worth noting is that if you want most staves hidden, but, for whatever reason there is an area where you do NOT want Dorico to hid a stave (short pause in one part, for instance) you can create a text element anchored to one of the affected measures. Just shift+X, then type a single [space] and that element will prevent the auto-condensation.