Goldberg Variations - II

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:35 pm

This is turning into a fun project. Shall I give Variation 2 a go?
Anyway, I hope you don't mind but here's Variation 1 with a few changes. There were a couple of wrong notes (bb. 8, 14 and 22) and in b. 22 the RH note shouldn't be tied over from the previous bar. The last note in the first half should be doubled and in bar 22 the last rhythm in the LH should be dotted. BTW, I really like Dorico's ability to turn a series of 8th notes into dotted 8ths + 16ths by just clicking on the beam (or as many beams as you like) and pressing the dot key. There were also some layout things I changed. In the original, the first three bars are beamed through the whole bar in the LH and in similar places later; this gives a little more a feeling of unity. I changed some stem directions and kept the LH part in the bottom staff. Too bad that Dorico doesn't yet flatten beams properly and there still aren't any settings which work in the majority of cases, so I changed the default beam angles and tweaked the rest by hand.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:00 pm

Oh yes, I also moved the last fermata away from the last note and onto the barline (a nice, easy operation in Dorico!). In these cases the fermata doesn't mean anything more than those in the Bach chorales which just tell you where the end of the phrase is or, in this case, the end of the variation.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:09 pm

Here's the 2nd variation. Reduced the size so that it would fit on one page. Interesting how much tweaking is still necessary. Only two things can't be done (besides the workaround for the ornaments). One is, of course, the 1st and 2nd endings. And I wonder if it's possible to have a double bar at the end of bar 17 AND a forward repeat at the beginning of bar 18 (which should be numbered differently with 1st & 2nd endings).
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Very cool ... Vaughn, how do you change the beams in Variation No. 1 (such that they are grouped together for all the notes in bar 1, 2, 3, etc.)?

Thanks for the feedback everyone ... don't think I would have been able to figure this out on my own.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:23 pm

Depending on the pagination of your layout, you might find that (say) the first page of a layout ends up on a left-hand page rather than a right-hand page, which is why every master page definition includes both a left- and a right-hand page.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:34 am

Peter Roos wrote:Very cool ... Vaughn, how do you change the beams in Variation No. 1 (such that they are grouped together for all the notes in bar 1, 2, 3, etc.)?
You can either select the first and the last notes in the group or drag-select all the notes, whichever is easier, and then from either the Edit menu or from the Contextual menu select Beam Together under Beaming. This works unless one of the notes is tied to or from an adjacent bar. Since selecting any part of a tied note usually selects the entire group of tied notes, If the note in the adjacent bar has a beam, this action will beam across the barline. If the tied note doesn't have a beam, you won't be able to beam the other notes together at all. The only way around this is to do it in Engrave mode and be careful to select only the notehead of the tied note within the bar where you want to beam the notes. I hope that isn't too incomprehensible!
In any case, I'm making more and more macros in an external program so that I don't have to go through the popovers, menus or properties panels. This can save a lot of time.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Rob Tuley » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:39 am

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:This works unless one of the notes is tied to or from an adjacent bar ... The only way around this is to do it in Engrave mode ...
In the 1.0.10 update, there is a "scissor tool" (shortcut shift-U) that can "cut" ties in Write mode to do this sort of thing. See the sticky thread at the top of the forum for more details.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:12 am

That's indeed possible, but for me it's be quicker to switch to Engrave mode and select carefully than to break a slur, beam the notes and then re-tie them. YMMV.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:08 am

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:Here's the 2nd variation. Reduced the size so that it would fit on one page. Interesting how much tweaking is still necessary. Only two things can't be done (besides the workaround for the ornaments). One is, of course, the 1st and 2nd endings. And I wonder if it's possible to have a double bar at the end of bar 17 AND a forward repeat at the beginning of bar 18 (which should be numbered differently with 1st & 2nd endings).
Goldberg var 2.dorico.zip

Cool - thanks for this Vaughan. Quick question: did you turn off playback by any chance?

I don't hear anything when I press the play button. I see the green bar moving but that's it. Other Dorico scores play back fine, to be sure.

Cheers,
Peter

ps speaking of the green bar, in my own Variation No. 1 it has suddenly disappeared. Did I inadvertently turn it off, and if so, how do I turn it back on?

ps 2 while on the subject of the green, and I assume this is in the pipeline, it would be nice if the score would scroll along automatically while the green bar moves from left to right, without having drag the score from left to right.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:15 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:Depending on the pagination of your layout, you might find that (say) the first page of a layout ends up on a left-hand page rather than a right-hand page, which is why every master page definition includes both a left- and a right-hand page.
Hi Daniel:

Somewhat related, would it possible, and maybe make more sense, to have a work like this (the entire Goldberg Variations) as a single project, with Flows for each of the Aria and Variations? They all have different time signatures.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of Flows. Or is that more suitable for e.g. a full orchestral work and then reductions for just piano, choir, reduced orchestra, and so on.

Thanks!

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:13 am

I think that if you don't want cautionary time (or key) signatures between the variations, your only choice is to make each variation in a separate flow.
About the sound not playing back, I believe I used the Steinway piano in the Aria player on my system. I don't know how Dorico deals with it if you get a file from someone who has used different VI's. It'd be ideal if Dorico loaded similar sounds according to the setup of the person receiving the file. Perhaps someone from Steinberg will chime in on this.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:12 pm

When you share a project with somebody else, it will only play back with the same sounds if the saved VST plug-in data in the project is compatible with the plug-ins available on your system, which will typically be true if you're using HALion Sonic SE, but otherwise is very unlikely to be true. You can choose Play > Apply Default Playback Template to get playback working with a project you've received from somebody else.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Bob Morabito » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:46 pm

Vaughan Schlepp wrote: Agreed! Hopefully they're working on this for one of the two updates coming out this year.
Hi Vaughan--I knew there would be an update, (released yesterday) but didnt know about the second one you mention coming out this year.

Where is the second update mentioned?

Thanks so much!
Bob

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:28 pm

The Dorico team mentioned something about another update coming out 'before the end of the year'.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by k_b » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:08 am

I don’t know, if anybody noticed: in the example there is a wrong note in bar 8 (left hand). There should be a d instead of an e
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:20 am

Here is variation 3.

The upgrade released on Thanksgiving is a great help - now I can hear whatever notes I put in. That is really helpful, because I can hear immediately when a voice is off.

But that said, a couple of things are still puzzling me:

1. When I am in a voice, and a note is highlighted, and I push the buttons on my keyboard cursors left or right, I expect Dorico to play back the notes in that voice. But instead, it jumps from here to there, and I have to go back and see where I left off, and click on the notes manually. Weird!

2. Again, about voices, all voices and notes are now black, even when I pick a new voice. That's much easier on the eyes, but I'd still like the ability to pick a color for a voice, and then when inputting notes, be able to pick a specific voice.

3. Again, bars 13 and 14 are too long - doesn't really bother me, but system break (Shift S) doesn't seem to work.

Thanks! Love the feedback from this community. :)
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:14 am

k_b wrote:I don’t know, if anybody noticed: in the example there is a wrong note in bar 8 (left hand). There should be a d instead of an e
Which file are you referring to? If it's the first variation, that and some other errors were corrected in edit 2.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:33 am

Peter Roos wrote:Here is variation 3.

The upgrade released on Thanksgiving is a great help - now I can hear whatever notes I put in. That is really helpful, because I can hear immediately when a voice is off.

But that said, a couple of things are still puzzling me:

1. When I am in a voice, and a note is highlighted, and I push the buttons on my keyboard cursors left or right, I expect Dorico to play back the notes in that voice. But instead, it jumps from here to there, and I have to go back and see where I left off, and click on the notes manually. Weird!

2. Again, about voices, all voices and notes are now black, even when I pick a new voice. That's much easier on the eyes, but I'd still like the ability to pick a color for a voice, and then when inputting notes, be able to pick a specific voice.

3. Again, bars 13 and 14 are too long - doesn't really bother me, but system break (Shift S) doesn't seem to work.

Thanks! Love the feedback from this community. :)
Well done, Peter. You've switched the voices around at places which makes it difficult to follow their movement. Did you change the stem directions manually?

1. Pressing the left or right arrows moves from note to note in Write mode whereas in Engrave mode it moves between noteheads and other elements like beams and stems. Unfortunately, in Write mode, passing a system break often causes the cursor to jump to another voice.
2. I can still choose View Note Colours if I want. Did you look there?
3. In Engrave mode, select the first note in bar 13 and the last note in bar 14. It's easier to do this with the LH notes as the last note in bar 14 is tied and you have to make sure not to select the entire note. Then select make into system in the palette on the left. System break is, well, for breaking the system, not forcing bars into one system.

If you'd like, I could take a look at your file and check the voices, stem direction and rests.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:32 am

Just found a strange anomaly in this variation. In bar 6, beat 4, LH there's a natural on the C, which is wrong. It should be C#. For some reason it plays back as C# even though it's displaying differently. This is troubling.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:42 pm

I'm tempted to move this over into a new thread because there are a couple of things I'd like to ask the Dorico team and I'm afraid they won't want to wade through three pages of our banter about the Goldberg variations. If they don't respond to this, I'll open a new thread.
I've included my edit of this variation. The most important worry I have is the accidental in bar 6, beat 4, LH which shows a natural but plays a sharp. I can't see how this should be possible.
I've switched the stem directions around to show the canonic voices. It may seem pedantic but you really have to keep the stem directions of the two voices consistent. This variation is a good notation exercise for that very reason. Dorico handles it pretty well. I still had to tweak a number of ties, beams and rests, though.
One thing I haven't figured out is how to enter a whole measure rest in the second voice of bars 1 and 9.
There were a couple of ties missing and an extra note. I also removed some of the redundant cautionary accidentals which were could be confusing.
Another feature I'm looking forward to in a future update is being able to adjust horizontal spacing. In Engraving options I decreased the default gap between notes in different voices to ½ spaces and the gap between adjacent noteheads to 0. This adjacent notehead change still leaves a gap between the noteheads (see the first beat in the RH of the last bar) because of the shape of the Bravura noteheads. The reduced gap between voices looks good in most places but Dorico still leaves too much space between noteheads in one voice and flags in the other voice (bar 3, beat 4, bar 5 all beats and bar 7, beat 1).
I hope the Dorico team responds to this!
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by MarcLarcher » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:55 pm

Dear Vaughan,
I opened you file and could insert the two whole measure rests in bar one and 9. I use force duration (o), select the right voice (first voice stems down for bar 1, and second voice stems up for bar 9, which is inconsistant…), press coma to insert rest, dot and any note key (abcdefg) and voilà !
I am very interested in all your posts and I am sure I am not the only one following you ;-)
By the way, if Daniel reads this, in bar 9, there seems to be a bug when I add my whole dotted rest : it is written twice, and the left one is clearly wrong.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by fratveno » Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:07 pm

A single whole measure rest normally signifies an empty voice in any meter, so I assume Vaughan means a whole measure rest without dot...?
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:08 pm

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:The most important worry I have is the accidental in bar 6, beat 4, LH which shows a natural but plays a sharp. I can't see how this should be possible.
It can only be possible due to a bug, of course. Under some circumstances it is possible for a note to end with an explicit accidental design specified as a property: not, unfortunately a property you can see in the Properties panel, and nor is it one that can currently be removed by way of Edit > Reset Appearance (though I have made that change since 1.0.10 was built, so it will be possible in the next update, though I very much hope that the problem that leads to the property being set incorrectly will also be squashed before the next update). The only way to repair a note that has this property set at the moment is, I think, to delete it and add it again.

This is a pretty insidious bug as it will only show itself when you make an edit to the music: if you end up with a note with this property set (which *should* only happen, I think, if you create the accidental using the right-hand panel for accidentals, rather than using the keyboard shortcuts or the flat/natural/sharp buttons on the left-hand panel), then it will look OK at that point, but if you e.g. repitch the note or respell it, it will continue to show the same accidental, even though under the hood it knows that it should actually use a different accidental.

It's not good at all and it snuck in at the last minute as we were hurrying to try and get microtonal accidentals working properly from the right-hand panel.
Vaughan Schlepp wrote:One thing I haven't figured out is how to enter a whole measure rest in the second voice of bars 1 and 9.
This isn't possible yet, but we hope to get a button to create an explicit bar rest in soon.
Vaughan Schlepp wrote:In Engraving options I decreased the default gap between notes in different voices to ½ spaces and the gap between adjacent noteheads to 0. This adjacent notehead change still leaves a gap between the noteheads (see the first beat in the RH of the last bar) because of the shape of the Bravura noteheads.
You can now set the gap between adjacent noteheads to less than 0 for this specific reason if you wish, but of course beware that there may be other situations in which this produces a less good result.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:12 pm

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:
Peter Roos wrote:Here is variation 3.

The upgrade released on Thanksgiving is a great help - now I can hear whatever notes I put in. That is really helpful, because I can hear immediately when a voice is off.

But that said, a couple of things are still puzzling me:

1. When I am in a voice, and a note is highlighted, and I push the buttons on my keyboard cursors left or right, I expect Dorico to play back the notes in that voice. But instead, it jumps from here to there, and I have to go back and see where I left off, and click on the notes manually. Weird!

2. Again, about voices, all voices and notes are now black, even when I pick a new voice. That's much easier on the eyes, but I'd still like the ability to pick a color for a voice, and then when inputting notes, be able to pick a specific voice.

3. Again, bars 13 and 14 are too long - doesn't really bother me, but system break (Shift S) doesn't seem to work.

Thanks! Love the feedback from this community. :)
Well done, Peter. You've switched the voices around at places which makes it difficult to follow their movement. Did you change the stem directions manually?

1. Pressing the left or right arrows moves from note to note in Write mode whereas in Engrave mode it moves between noteheads and other elements like beams and stems. Unfortunately, in Write mode, passing a system break often causes the cursor to jump to another voice.
2. I can still choose View Note Colours if I want. Did you look there?
3. In Engrave mode, select the first note in bar 13 and the last note in bar 14. It's easier to do this with the LH notes as the last note in bar 14 is tied and you have to make sure not to select the entire note. Then select make into system in the palette on the left. System break is, well, for breaking the system, not forcing bars into one system.

If you'd like, I could take a look at your file and check the voices, stem direction and rests.
Many thanks Vaughan (and Marc, and Daniel).

1. Yes, I did change of the voices around, not by design but mistake -- e.g., the missed ties between the first and second e in bar 13 and 14, respectively. Interestingly, by just adding those, it fixes not only the voicing issue but also the bar spacing, without having to add any system breaks.

2. As to the stem direction, yes I deliberately changed them in e.g. bar 10 and a few other places. I know it's a violation of the "rules" about stem direction, but the way bar 10 is engraved in the Kirkpatrick score and the way you have it (stems down in second voice), make it difficult to read for me. I admit that I don't play piano, maybe piano players are used to this kind of thing.

3. Voice colors - ah you can turn those on and off! :) Yes they still work for me.

4. The C natural note in bar 6 is whacky - if you take it out, it still sounds C#, and if instead you add a natural back in, it sounds C natural. Fwiw, I entered the notes by pressing R with my index finger and then, keeping my left thumb on the Alt key, adjusting the pitch with the cursor keys on the right side of the keyboard. I don't know if that is the fast or most efficient way but that works pretty well for me, since I don't have to take my eyes off the screen, and I can do one voice at a time.

5. I don't know if this is related, by the way, but in bar 6, LH, I can't take out the natural in front of the C in the fourth 16th note, or in bar 3 (same spot, 4th 16th note), how did you do that? They are cautionary accidental but normally you should be able to take those out, no? Or is the natural in the LH of bar 6 tied to the natural in front of the C in the right hand (second voice, green).

About the note highlighting in Write mode - that's similar in Sibelius and it's a bit annoying, would be better if Dorico would stick to the same voice if you go from note to note.

Cheers
Peter

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:27 am

Oh dear ... I started working on Variation 4, and everything was going well, with the voices all being beautifully laid out, until all of a sudden something went wrong. I hit CTRL-Z several times, but it only went from bad to worse.

I swear I didn't do anything! I even voted for Bernie!

Seriously, what is going on here?! :shock:
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