Goldberg Variations - II

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:24 am

Thanks for the feedback!

I attach the zipped complete Aria.

In addition to the formatting issues, there's another issue, quote from the FAQ:

"How do I delete bars?
To delete any empty bars left over at the end of your current flow, simply choose Write > Trim Flow."

That doesn't work either.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:32 am

I'd originally given up on the .7z extension but I tried renaming the file to .zip and it uncompressed fine. Interestingly, when I double-clicked the .7z file the next time, it also unzipped without a problem.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:29 am

P.S. Now I don't even have to unzip it. The system already does this after downloading the file.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:47 am

Peter, I'm attaching your file with the last bars removed. It wasn't at all straightforward because there were empty rests and perhaps some other artefacts left in those last bars, i.e. they weren't empty at all. I did it by selecting them repeatedly and pressing delete. Gradually they reduced in number until the last bar was indeed at the end. Another partial way is to select the first rest after the last note and press Shift-B and then a minus sign plus the number of bars you wish to remove. This didn't work perfectly, either, and I had to use a combination of techniques. This should really be easier!
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:10 pm

I hope you don't mind my adding a few remarks. For one thing, if you want the correct ornaments, you'll have to enter them as text, as I described earlier in this thread. I suppose that the number of zigzags in the inverted mordent is open to interpretation (the original has one more than what Dorico offers), but the ornament on the second beat of bar 3 is simply wrong and you can't enter it as an ornament because Dorico just doesn't offer it yet. Same with bars 11, 12, 17, etc. and especially 21 and 23. (There's one missing in bar 5.) There are also a couple of appoggiaturas missing and the slurs still need to be entered. I'd change the stem direction of the top voice in bar 7, second beat, the 3rd beat of bar 9 and the first beat of bar 27. The note at the end of the first beat and the appoggiatura in bar 19 second beat should be a d#, not a d. BTW, the problem with the rests in bar 10 might have to do with your having two overlapping rests on the same spot. I selected these rests and pressed delete, which didn't look as though it did anything, and then I was able to select the first a and choose Ends voice in the properties panel. And despite the modern 'rules' about breaking the beams between single 8ths over the beat in ¾ time, Dorico will let you connect them, like in bars 11, 12, 20, 21, 23 and 27.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by MarcLarcher » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:21 pm

Nice work and very interesting thread !
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:50 pm

Here's my attempt at this. I've included both the file and a screen shot if you just want to glance at it but don't want to download the Dorico document.

I've done a couple of things which are in the original and which aren't, technically speaking, completely correct, but the meaning is still obvious and they look less contrived. Fortunately Dorico does provide for them, like the dotted 4ths and 8ths in the last two systems in the second voice which share noteheads with the upper voice, as well as beaming groups of three 8ths.

Besides having to enter the ornaments as text (new paragraph style called Ornaments, using the Bravura font), there are still two things which bother me, though. One is the strange grace note spacing in bars 14, 20 and 23, and the other is the fact that Dorico insists on secondary beam breaks back to the 8th beam in bars 4, 7, 21,22 and 26. I was able to change the one in bar 17, but only to the 16th. I was told that Dorico does this 'correctly' so, at the moment, we can't notate this the way Bach (and all his copyists and all the editions since) did it. There are still some horizontal spacing issues I'd tweak, like the distance between the third and fourth 8th notes (2nd beat) in bars 8, 11, 12, 18, 19 and 20, or that the first beat of bar 17 takes up too much space, but the ability to alter this will be implemented in one of the coming updates.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:14 pm

Regarding the grace note spacing in bars 14, 20, and 23, the reason the grace note ends up so far away from the main note is because two different gaps are being used here: Dorico is using both the ‘Minimum distance between rightmost grace note and rhythmic item’ gap (from Grace Notes group on the Notes page in Engraving Options) and ‘Gap to left of leftmost accidental’ (from Gaps on the Accidentals page of Engraving Options). Unfortunately reducing either or both of these to zero will cause problems in other situations, so unless we can think of a good way to handle this spacing situation better automatically (which I will definitely think about), this might be a situation where a bit of manual adjustment — once that is possible via editable rhythmic spacing — will be necessary.

You can achieve the beaming you want in bars 4, 7, 21, 22, and 26 by switching off the 'Split secondary beam' property you have set, and instead selecting the first and last notes of each beam group in turn and choosing Edit > Beaming > Beam Together.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Robby Poole » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:57 pm

Peter,

I got the rests to delete by selecting each one and hitting delete. Apparently there was a lock-duration set on them. I think I hit delete twice on each rest. I then clicked on the quarter note, and hit end voice, and the rests went away.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Robby Poole » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:01 pm

That does add the 8th rest back in on the beginning of the next measure. To delete the rest, select on the first 8th note and click start voice.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:17 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:You can achieve the beaming you want in bars 4, 7, 21, 22, and 26 by switching off the 'Split secondary beam' property you have set, and instead selecting the first and last notes of each beam group in turn and choosing Edit > Beaming > Beam Together.
Thank you, Daniel! I really appreciate the time it took to address this. I'd gotten off on a completely wrong foot and was tweaking the wrong things. I'm really glad that Dorico does have these capabilities. The only place I couldn't emulate the original notation was bar 17. It would be nice to be able to show the 32nd note gesture upwards without the break in the middle so maybe it would be possible sometime to remove the one-beam-fewer limitation the Split secondary beam function in the properties panel. I would only wish for another setting in Notation Options/Beam Grouping not to allow secondary beam breaks. There's still a lot of music that doesn't use these (also in 16th runs in 3/8 or 6/8 meter, for example), and having to override this setting manually for each beam group isn't really an option.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:28 am

For what it's worth, here's the updated version of the aria with most of the 'problems' taken care of. I'm hoping it'll be possible to take care of the others in version 1.0.10.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:08 am

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

At this point, I don't really care about the engraving, or whether I have the correct Baroque ornamentals ( I know I do not - I just picked whatever is available right now). For me this is just a really basic exercise on how to enter notes.

Two things are still totally confusing to me:

1. I still can't get rid of the empty bars after bar 32 - I keep selecting individual rests, delete them (or try to), I select bars and then delete them. Sometimes the number of empty bars go up, sometimes they go down ... again and again ... dozens of times. It's a complete mystery as to what is going on. I'm now left with one extraneous bar.

While entering the notes and mangling Bach I probably committed many crimes against humanity, but coming from Sibelius, I am used to being able to just select bars and delete them -- whatever is in them, lock, stock and barrel. Just get rid of it.

2. I still don't quite understand what the deal is the many voices and the coloring. For example, I started out with blue in the top staff, and turquoise / amaranth / green in the bottom staff.

After the first repeat (bars 17 ff.), the bottom staff is all blue. When I click on them, I can't see which voice they are -- why are there so many different colors? Can I select voices and then turn them into other voices? Which voice even corresponds to a particular color?

Maybe I just don't understand the way Dorico works ... should I just input one voice at a time, from the beginning until the end, and then do the next voice?

:?: :?:

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:17 am

Peter, it will be much easier to tell why bars aren't deleting from version 1.0.10, as you'll see signposts for e.g. hidden time signatures, which I suspect is what's causing the problem. The Write > Trim Flow feature will only delete up to the last actual event in the music, and the last event in the music can be invisible (e.g. an irregular bar caused by having deleted a time signature or similar). In 1.0 you can't see that these things even exist, and of course it's also easy to inadvertently create such a situation by deleting a barline accidentally. In 1.0.10, it'll be harder to delete barlines by mistake (they won't be included in the selection when you click in the staff to select music, and they won't be selected via marquee selection either), and when they do occur, you'll be able to see them and hence delete them.

You should be able to force the deletion of bars by double-clicking in the bar *before* the bar(s) you want to delete, such that the caret appears there, then type Shift+B to show the bars and barlines popover, and type e.g. -3 to delete three bars, starting with the bar following the caret's current position.

We definitely have more work to do to make this more obvious and easier. There is a missing bit of user interface that we hope to add soon, which we call the system track, which will appear above the top of every system and provide an easy way to insert bars, delete bars, and select all the music across all players (including system-attached things like tempos, rehearsal marks, time signatures, key signatures, and so on).

As for voices, I suspect the issue might be that you are hitting Shift+V every time you want to switch to another voice, which you don't need to do: once you've started using a second voice anywhere on a staff, you can switch between the voices you've used by hitting V on its own.

Unfortunately the editing functions provided to allow you to sort out extraneous voices easily are not there yet, and alas they won't be included in 1.0.10 as we had planned (some bugs and other problems with copying and pasting in the end took priority), but we will come to these as soon as we possibly can.

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:38 am

The functionality you're describing sounds really amazing and I can't even imagine how complex it must be to implement. It'll certainly make our lives easier and perhaps even lessen the need to be able to hide objects like rests. Looking forward to future developments!
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:43 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:Peter, it will be much easier to tell why bars aren't deleting from version 1.0.10, as you'll see signposts for e.g. hidden time signatures, which I suspect is what's causing the problem. The Write > Trim Flow feature will only delete up to the last actual event in the music, and the last event in the music can be invisible (e.g. an irregular bar caused by having deleted a time signature or similar). In 1.0 you can't see that these things even exist, and of course it's also easy to inadvertently create such a situation by deleting a barline accidentally. In 1.0.10, it'll be harder to delete barlines by mistake (they won't be included in the selection when you click in the staff to select music, and they won't be selected via marquee selection either), and when they do occur, you'll be able to see them and hence delete them.

You should be able to force the deletion of bars by double-clicking in the bar *before* the bar(s) you want to delete, such that the caret appears there, then type Shift+B to show the bars and barlines popover, and type e.g. -3 to delete three bars, starting with the bar following the caret's current position.

We definitely have more work to do to make this more obvious and easier. There is a missing bit of user interface that we hope to add soon, which we call the system track, which will appear above the top of every system and provide an easy way to insert bars, delete bars, and select all the music across all players (including system-attached things like tempos, rehearsal marks, time signatures, key signatures, and so on).

As for voices, I suspect the issue might be that you are hitting Shift+V every time you want to switch to another voice, which you don't need to do: once you've started using a second voice anywhere on a staff, you can switch between the voices you've used by hitting V on its own.

Unfortunately the editing functions provided to allow you to sort out extraneous voices easily are not there yet, and alas they won't be included in 1.0.10 as we had planned (some bugs and other problems with copying and pasting in the end took priority), but we will come to these as soon as we possibly can.
Very cool --thanks Daniel.

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What dimwits like me and others really need, is a simple user guide. Just step by step, one simple step at a time.

Love you man. Happy Thanksgiving to you and the family!! :)

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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by k_b » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:21 pm

Happy Thanksgiving to you and the family!! :)
just out of interest: are there Thanksgiving ceremonies outside the US.?
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Derrek » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:07 pm

Canada has one, and UK has a similar "holiday" IIRC--but they are not on the same date as the one in the US.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Robert Enns » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:16 pm

Canada's is in early October when the weather is better and the leaves are turning color.
But the bigger difference is that it is not nearly as important as Christmas, unlike the US where Thanksgiving is the main holiday and travel becomes a nightmare.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:50 pm

Canada's method distributes the holidays slightly better. One's stomach has a little more time to recover from one greedy gut season to the next.
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Goldberg Variations - Variation No. 1

Post by Peter Roos » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:30 am

Well, I think I'm getting the hang of it ... here's Variation No. 1. Looks a lot better than what I made of the Aria, doesn't it? For one thing, there are no weird colored voices, or wacky additional bars.

This only took me a couple of hours, focusing on one voice / staff at a time ... just inputting the notes. I think I'm getting the hang of it ... I think the trick is to input one voice at a time.

Obviously there's still a lot that can be improved:

1. Cross staff beaming - how do I do that? (e.g., bars 21, 22, 24)
2. Cleff changes (e.g. bar 13 and 14) - how do I do that?
3. Print layout is less than ideal - bar 16 should end on page 1, bar 32 should end on page 2; should be printed on two pages. How do I do that?
4. How do I get the subtitle (Variation No. 1) to display in print mode?

Thanks!
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by MarcLarcher » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:37 am

In Write mode
1. Cross staff beaming : bar 21 left hand staff, just select g and press n, do the same for the next two notes. Same on bar 22
2. Select you first low f, press shift+c, write f. Select "high" a two notes later, press shift+c, write g in the popover
3. In Engrave mode, select the first note of the first bar, command-click the last note (rest) bar 16 and click "make into frame (second option of Format Music frames on the left panel). The result is ugly.
Open Layout options (cmd+shift+L) and reduce size to 4,5pt. To make it better, click on the first note bar 20 and insert a system break (cmd+alt+S — this might change in the forthcoming update). I did the same bar 24
In Layout options, select note spacement page, and change the justify value (last value you can change on this page) to something like 50%, the last system will be justified too.
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by MarcLarcher » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:51 am

To get your subtitle in the title page, you must edit your masterpage layout.
To achieve this, in Engrave mode, double click on the first pages of Masterpage menu, in the right panel.
Shorten the music frame on the right page (which actually masters your first page), in order to make room under the title (where {@flowTitle@} is written), create a text frame under there and write {@flowsubtitle@} — choose font and centering and all the stuff as usual. Close the masterpage editor (up and right corner) and that's it.
I attach the file ;-)
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:09 am

Good advice, Marc. I'll look at the files when I get a chance. I wish it were as easy to learn to play the Goldberg variations as it is to learn to notate them in Dorico!
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Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by lbuckley » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:31 pm

What happens when you edit the LEFT panel of the master page layout? I can't see any result anywhere.

Thanks, as always.
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