Goldberg Variations - II

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:28 am

Thanks Claude -- words of wisdom.

Yes, I'll stick around. I don't have any pressing deadlines, so one step at a time will do it for me. :)

John Ruggero
Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 11:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:26 am

I have not been able to follow this thread for lack of Dorico, but the seconds in Variation 6 in the Lapalme engraving should not be separated by the dot. It is not like that in the first edition or in any edition I have ever encountered and with good reason: legibility. The two notes that form each second should be touching or almost touching and the dot must be offset wherever it is mostly clearly visible. This will probably require hand positioning of every dot.

User avatar
Claude Lapalme
Member
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 6:29 pm
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Claude Lapalme » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:35 am

You are correct. And it was mentioned in a previous comment that voice positioning is incorrect on seconds where the dotted 1/4s are on lines. Hopefully, it is something that can be fixed. But it seems very specific to this exact examples where 16ths run underneath and notes are beamed in a baroque fashion. Eschewing any of those practices takes care of the spacing. My quickly jotted example was simply as a means to encourage Peter.
Claude Lapalme - Conductor, Arranger, Orchestrator
Music Director @ Red Deer Symphony Orchestra
Artistic Director @ Rosa Barocca
-------------------------------------------------------------
AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core 3.59 GHz - Windows 10 Pro
Sound BlasterX G6 - Dorico 3.1.10 - Note Performer 3.3.1

John Ruggero
Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 11:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:37 pm

For the record, here is the way Finale does this with only one edit of the first tie to an "under" tie:

The order of the notes in the seconds varies in different editions, but Finale's default output matches the Peters edition (ed. Soldan) exactly.
Attachments
Finale Goldberg 6.png
(290.48 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Vaughan Schlepp
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:09 am
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:07 am

I agree. The distances Dorico places in an attempt not to distort the spacing of the even LH 16ths causes unsightly gaps between notes which should [almost] touch, almost making the measure look as though the time signature were 7/16 at times. And I'm still bothered by Dorico's inability to flatten beams correctly. The LH 16ths in the first 5 bars (and similar spots) should always be flat. This has already been a long discussion and Daniel said that the team is looking to improve this in a coming update.
MacPro (late 2013), 16 GB RAM, 4-core
MacBookPro (2018), 16 GB RAM, 6-core
OS 10.15.3
NotePerformer
Hauptwerk Advanced
Dorico 3.1.10
Finale 3.2-26.2, Sibelius 5-7

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:50 pm

And here is Variation 7. Maybe if I do one variation per day, I'll get the hang of the program before very long ... have to say that this one is much easier than Variation 6.

Three questions:

1. The first system is a bit short - what's going here? I selected the first note in bar 1 and the last note in bar 16 (D) and made them into a frame.
2. There are too many (cautionary?) accidentals in bar 22, I can't get rid of them.
3. When I print to png, how can I make them into one page? Or is it a feature of the png format that you can just print one page at a time? With pdfs, I can print both pages to one pdf document.

Cheers!
Attachments
Goldberg Variations - Variation 7 Full score 2.png
(81 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Goldberg Variations - Variation 7 Full score 1.png
(83.1 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Goldberg Variations - Variation 7.zip
(221.04 KiB) Downloaded 80 times

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 15839
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:57 pm

1. Do you mean that the first system is intended from the left-hand side? If so, go to the Note Spacing page of Layout Options and set 'Indent first system by n spaces' to 0.

2. You can hide individual accidentals by selecting the notes in question and setting the 'Accidental' property to 'Hide'.

3. You could set the job option to e.g. '2-up' before you export your graphics, which would put both pages into the same PNG. For more than two pages, however, you'll always end up with multiple graphics.

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:58 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:1. Do you mean that the first system is intended from the left-hand side? If so, go to the Note Spacing page of Layout Options and set 'Indent first system by n spaces' to 0.
Thanks Daniel!

Follow up question: where can I find the "Indent first system by n spaces" option?
Attachments
Capture.PNG
(57.78 KiB) Not downloaded yet

composerjk
New Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:33 am
Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by composerjk » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:14 am

Peter Roos wrote:
Daniel at Steinberg wrote:1. Do you mean that the first system is intended from the left-hand side? If so, go to the Note Spacing page of Layout Options and set 'Indent first system by n spaces' to 0.
Follow up question: where can I find the "Indent first system by n spaces" option?
I believe that Daniel may have meant the "Staves and Systems" category of "Layout Options."

Select "Layout Options" by Shift-Command-L (on a Mac; I assume Shift-Control-L for Windows, but am not using it) or go to the Setup tab and select the menu "Setup > Layout Options…". Then, under "Select a Category:" in the left sidebar, select "Staves and Systems."
Typeface designer, Composer, Pianist, Analog synths, Dancer
https://1403.slantedhall.com/ | https://slantedhall.com/

User avatar
MarcLarcher
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:38 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by MarcLarcher » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:11 am

Dear Peter,

It's indeed in the Layout options, but in Staves and Systems category.
Capture d’écran 2016-12-19 à 09.08.52.png
(187.39 KiB) Not downloaded yet
I must admit that without a "general search field" it is sometimes complicated to find the option we need…
OS X 10.14.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and music engraver (Dorico Pro 3.1.10, and Photoscore Ultimate 2020.1.14(9.0.3))
French is my native language

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:16 pm

And here's Variation 8.

It may be subjective but something has changed in the latest Dorico update -- the "funny" stuff with the accidentals is now gone. Great improvement.

Quick question: I like the way this looks, except for the final system which is squished together -- is there a way to get it to the same length as the other systems?

Thanks!
Attachments
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 Full score 1.png
(152.87 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8.zip
(216.42 KiB) Downloaded 54 times

andgle
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by andgle » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:23 pm

Peter Roos wrote: Quick question: I like the way this looks, except for the final system which is squished together -- is there a way to get it to the same length as the other systems?
Looks great!
Layout Options -> Note Spacing -> "Only justify final system in flow when more than ..."
Anders

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:16 am

Many thanks Anders! I'm pretty sure I asked this before ... and somebody replied to it as well. Anyways.

note to self: see also Tip on page 70 of operation manual.

Edit: this is only half of Variatio 8 - rest to follow

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:47 pm

And here's the full version. I'm quite pleased with the way it looks, but while inputting the notes something strange happened -- the playback was out of sync, meaning that the green bar was about 2 bars ahead of the music and it wouldn't play back until the end.

This is somewhat similar to what someone posted in "Dorico is faster than I want!" thread.

After shutting down Dorico, Sibelius and Reaper, and rebooting Dorico (and Sibelius and Reaper) the problem did not reoccur.

Weird?

I am using the generic low latency asio driver, sample rate 48kHz (same sample rate I am using with Sibelius and Reaper).

ps on a layout note, why do I have to enter "Variatio 8" on every page after manually fiddling around with the frames? I may have asked this before, still not sure that I understand how to set up a subtitle.
Attachments
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2 Full score 3.png
(126.37 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2 Full score 1.png
(123.44 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2.zip
(235.32 KiB) Downloaded 60 times

Peadey
Junior Member
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:41 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peadey » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:13 am

A little tighter Version... Just for fun.

Subtitles: {@flowsubtitle@}

I suggest not to overwrite the Master Pages, but to include the subtitle into them. Additionally could you build a paragraph style "Subtitle" and use it. I did something like that in the example file, removed all overwrites and system and frame breaks.

And I played around with Setup/Layout Options/Vertical Spacing
Attachments
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2.dorico - tighter.zip
(234.49 KiB) Downloaded 56 times
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2.dorico - tighter Full score 1.png
(204.57 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:39 am

Peadey wrote:A little tighter Version... Just for fun.

Subtitles: {@flowsubtitle@}

I suggest not to overwrite the Master Pages, but to include the subtitle into them. Additionally could you build a paragraph style "Subtitle" and use it. I did something like that in the example file, removed all overwrites and system and frame breaks.

And I played around with Setup/Layout Options/Vertical Spacing
Very cool --- thanks Peadey.

One comment though: I would prefer bars 1 - 16 on page 1, and then bars 17 - 32 on the next page.

I tried to do that myself, by selecting the first and last note of bars 1-16 and "make into frame".

But then this resulted, see attachment. :shock: How to clean this up? :?
Attachments
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2.dorico - tighter (v2).dorico.zip
(234.31 KiB) Downloaded 72 times
Goldberg Variations - Variation 8 v2.dorico - tighter (v2) Full score 1.png
(207.91 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Rob Tuley
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 3177
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 12:41 am

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Rob Tuley » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:08 am

Automatic "casting off" bars into systems tends to get tied in knots when there is only one "good" solution - presumably 3 bars per system for Var 8. However the computer is measuring "goodness", it can get painted into a corner where making everything "good" except for one "terrible" system seems like "the best solution on average".

You could add a system break somewhere on each page to force two systems to have two bars each. Since all the bars are almost the same length, it probably doesn't matter much which systems you tweak.

Alternatively, you could try changing the overall note spacing in the engraving rules. i.e. set Layout Options / Note Spacing / Default space for quarter note bigger than 4. That might encourage Dorico to think two bars per system is "not too bad" for a couple of systems on each page. Or you could try making the spacing tighter and see if Dorico will put 4 bars on a system, and have fewer systems.

But if these two pages are facing pages in the printed score, it doesn't really matter if the repeat mark comes at the end of a page, because there are no page turns anyway.

Welcome to the difference between "banging the notes into a notation package" and "doing music engraving" ;)

Peadey
Junior Member
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:41 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peadey » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:16 am

You could do something like this:
goldberg 16 bars page 1.png
(252.05 KiB) Not downloaded yet
A few system breaks are enough. And a bit more space for the music:
goldberg setup layout.png
(34.46 KiB) Not downloaded yet
But it is not necessary. 3 bars per system is actually better.

Vaughan Schlepp
Member
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:09 am
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:36 pm

Sorry I haven't had the time to participate in this thread for awhile.
For the layout, I'd suggest keeping the three bars per system as a general rule but choosing the systems which need slightly more room as the ones to be formatted with two bars per system. In this case that would be the first systems, because they're either indented (beginning of 1st half) or have forward repeat bars (beginning of 2nd half), and the last systems of both halves because of the 32nd note runs. This will still stretch those systems out more than strictly necessary but stretching those systems would seem to be the least of all possible evils.
MacPro (late 2013), 16 GB RAM, 4-core
MacBookPro (2018), 16 GB RAM, 6-core
OS 10.15.3
NotePerformer
Hauptwerk Advanced
Dorico 3.1.10
Finale 3.2-26.2, Sibelius 5-7

Peter Roos
Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 7:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Goldberg Variations - II

Post by Peter Roos » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:49 pm

Hm ... all things considered I think Peter's version of Sunday is clearly the easiest on the eyes with 5 systems on page 1 and 6 on page 2. The original (source) takes up twice the space as it explains in an auxiliary staff how the ornaments are to be performed; if you don't need that then two pages is plenty indeed. And as Rob mentioned having the repeat signs right at the end of the first page isn't really necessary as both are open on the piano stand anyway. Only thing I might change is take out the indent on the first system to have all systems are the same length, though that is a pretty minor issue.

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests