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Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:40 pm
by boye
How do I add a third staff (with cross-staff barlines) to a piano grand staff?
And similarly, how do I transform a single staff into a piano grand staff?

The first example is often needed in certain elaborate types of piano writing, whereas the other comes in handy when creating a full piano version based on a lead sheet or simple vocal line.

Best,
Boye

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:13 pm
by Liamk
I have the same question, and I would also like to know how to hide or remove the third staff at certain places in the score. I imported a piano score with MusicXML which has three staves by mistake, and I haven't figured out how to remove the extra one.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:40 pm
by Daniel at Steinberg
I'm afraid the short answer is that, for now, you can't: the plan is that we will have an event that will change the number of staves in an instrument from a given rhythmic position, so you would be able to specify a move from two staves to three, or indeed one staff to two. I'm not sure when this will be implemented: possibly not in the very first update, but we will add it as soon as we can.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:52 pm
by boye
Daniel at Steinberg wrote:I'm afraid the short answer is that, for now, you can't: the plan is that we will have an event that will change the number of staves in an instrument from a given rhythmic position, so you would be able to specify a move from two staves to three, or indeed one staff to two. I'm not sure when this will be implemented: possibly not in the very first update, but we will add it as soon as we can.
Thanks for clarifying this.

Best,
Boye

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:48 pm
by vbridet98
Hi,

I would like to relaunch this question.
Do you know when Dorico will be able to support modifications of the number of staff, by instrument ? Maybe, the next update ?

Thanks for all and sorry for my english ...

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:42 pm
by Robert P
Hi Daniel,

As I am setting my first real-world Dorico score project these days, a contemporary piece for the piano, the question of staff flexibility appears to be crucial. Depending on the passage, my piece may show 1 to 4 staves.
Could you please give us an update of this feature?

Another question: is is possible to change the notehead size in a specific passage, to 75% for instance? (Think of Chopin’s study op.25 in Ab major for instance, where small and normal noteheads are mixed).

These are rather straighforward in product B.

Otherwise, Dorico appears to be very flexible in voicing, rhythm, beaming etc. :-) The fact the time signature is not essentially required is very useful for the piano repertoire where, very often, we deal with open rhythms (think of Charles Ives or Erik Satie, for instance...)

Many thanks,
Robert

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:33 pm
by fratveno
This is a frequent question, but it isn't yet possible officially. You may look at this thread, but I'm neither encouraging nor recommending it. Merely stating that it is possible.

Dorico uses oversized noteheads by default, so you may change noteheads to Default, which reduces the size. I'm not sure of the percentage in reduction though.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:34 pm
by Stephen Taylor
Last week I imported a piano piece with three staves as an xml file - and voila! Three staves in Dorico!

So maybe you can try making a short piece with three staves in another program, and then importing as xml.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:39 pm
by Robert P
Thank you all.
I'd rather not use workarounds for this staff problem, and this is why I was asking Daniel in the first place.
The feature of a system-based variable number of staves (2-4, sometimes 1-4) is very common in piano music, and this is why I think it should be built-in. I believe it can be seen in organ music, too, and potentially in other situations (pitched percussion?)

Robert

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:49 pm
by thicks
This would also be great for use with pitched keyboard percussion. Especially vibraphone since orchestral/band parts usually only use one line, but percussion ensemble/chamber music and especially solo vibraphone music use two staves. I thought it was odd this wasn't an option since the option for a 4 octave vibraphone was given.

Thanks!

TH

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:57 am
by Daniel at Steinberg
It will of course be built-in in the future, but unfortunately we cannot work on everything at the same time. The team is very busy working on chord symbols, editing note spacing, pedal lines, and a few other things besides for the next update. I hope that we will be able to look into changing the number of staves in an instrument in the following update, but I can't promise it.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:12 am
by Robert P
Thanks again, Daniel, and of course I understand that patience is the rule!
;)

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:34 pm
by Stephen Taylor
Here is a blank Dorico template for 3-staff piano, made from an imported xml file if this is useful.
3-staff-piano.dorico.zip
(199.88 KiB) Downloaded 180 times

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:38 pm
by fratveno
Thanks for bringing this up, Stephen. Dorico seems to be very obidient with MuseScore exports :) Finale always gave me 3 flutes with a bracket when I attempted to import some piano scores...

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:37 pm
by Robert P
One more thing:
When piano music expends to 3 or 4 staves, sub-brackets are sometimes needed (but not often, depending on the engraving style), as these Ligeti and Liszt examples illustrate.

Robert

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:15 am
by Romanos401
I wont belabor this point since Daniel has been so patient and already clarified things and I'm happy to be patient. I'm just going to put in a plug for Organ as well. It is not entirely uncommon for complicated (typically renaissance or romantic) organ scores to require 3 staves for hands and a 4th for pedals. (Think early strict fugal writing or complicated polyrhythmic / multi-manual music.) So, Daniel, please remember us organists whenever the team implements it for piano too! And, as always, thank you all for this wonderful program!

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:02 pm
by Daniel at Steinberg
When we introduce proper control for this stuff, you'll be able to have a 12-staff organ if you really want to!

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:37 pm
by k_b
Daniel at Steinberg wrote:When we introduce proper control for this stuff, you'll be able to have a 12-staff organ if you really want to!
Image
;-)

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:51 pm
by arco
Thanks Stephen Taylor for the 3 staves. I presume you use flows (somehow) to control whether the 2 or 3 staves appear? Any ideas how do you set this up as I have not done too much using flows?
I presume it would remain like this opening the file in the future, when there is a way to do this embedded in, but using flows it should just remain as it is, because it should not need to know it is the same piece (not that it matters at this point).
Thanks.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:36 am
by paulcopeland
Thank you Stephen for the piano score with three staves. Most useful.

Best wishes and keep up the great work.

Paul.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:12 am
by LeifG
@arco
You don't need flows to change the number of visible staves. Hide empty staves in Layout Options will do it. Just remember to click the setting for hiding individual staves within an instrument.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:15 am
by LeifG
...and besides, even violins sometimes use multiple staves (I've even seen 3). But supposedly, when it's implemented, it'll be possible even in extreme cases.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:10 pm
by dormusic
@fratveno, I've just started a piano sonata in Dorico and I need a 5 staff template. I no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't make my template as neat as yours from either a finale or Musescore Xml. How did you make the template in Musescore? Can you please make 5 staff template?
When I tried to make it it gave the attached result.

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:47 pm
by Stephen Taylor
This looks like it should work just fine - click on the first rest and type shift-C to change the clefs at the beginning (g for treble clef, f for bass clef).

Re: Piano with three staffs

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:39 pm
by Stefaan
dormusic wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:10 pm
@fratveno, I've just started a piano sonata in Dorico and I need a 5 staff template. I no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't make my template as neat as yours from either a finale or Musescore Xml. How did you make the template in Musescore? Can you please make 5 staff template?
When I tried to make it it gave the attached result.
@dormusic, I hope this can be of some help: it’s possible to create some extra space between the instrument name and the brace just by adding a space after ‘Piano’ in the instrument name.

Regards,

Stefaan