CD Groups

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plyman
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CD Groups

Post by plyman » Mon May 28, 2018 6:20 pm

How do you assign different CD groups within a montage? When try to assign groups under the CD tab all of the tracks change. I'd like the ability to render a set of tracks (for example, revisions) without rendering all of them.
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Justin P
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Re: CD Groups

Post by Justin P » Mon May 28, 2018 8:04 pm

As far as I know you must either render each track one at a time, or do all the tracks at once. CD Track Groups are for something different.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by bob99 » Mon May 28, 2018 8:44 pm

Justin P wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:04 pm
As far as I know you must either render each track one at a time, or do all the tracks at once. CD Track Groups are for something different.
Justin I've used the CD Track groups to render only tracks that are assigned to a particular group. That's worked fine for me.

I like the way groups are selected because it's easy to select track 1, set to A and all following go to group A. Then select track 6, set to B and all following go to group B. Once you get used to how it selects you can select particular tracks to a particular group, since you're only rendering one group in the render dialog. Maybe you can't get all permutations of non-consecutive tracks, but maybe that could be changed. But I wouldn't want the way it selects now to be changed or disabled.
Last edited by bob99 on Mon May 28, 2018 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CD Groups

Post by Justin P » Mon May 28, 2018 9:00 pm

bob99 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:44 pm
Justin P wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 8:04 pm
As far as I know you must either render each track one at a time, or do all the tracks at once. CD Track Groups are for something different.
Justin I've used the CD Track groups to render only tracks that are assigned to a particular group. That's worked fine for me.

I like the way groups are selected because it's easy to select track 1, set to A and all following go to group A. Then select track 6, set to B and all following go to group B. Once you get used to how it selects you can select particular tracks to a particular group, since you're only rendering one group in the render dialog. Maybe you can't get all permutations of non-consecutive tracks, but maybe that could be improved. But I wouldn't want the way it selects now to be changed or disabled.

Good to know. I think the original poster is looking for a way to render say tracks 2, 5, 7, and 9 from a montage and as far as I know, it's not possible and as you mention, assigning a track to group B sets all the following tracks to group B and so on down the line. This was by design for making vinyl and cassette pre-masters.

I haven't dug too deep but I haven't found a way to set non-consecutive tracks to the same group, or render just certain tracks from a montage in one command. It seems that of the available options from the Render Source (pictured below), you can do random selected clips, but not random selected tracks which can often be two different things.

None of the other options seem to be relevant either unless your CD Tracks happen to be consecutive an group-able.

I think for now if you want to render new versions of non-consecutive tracks, you have to do them one at at time, or render All Regions/CD Tracks and then delete the ones you don't need again.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by plyman » Mon May 28, 2018 9:29 pm

"I think the original poster is looking for a way to render say tracks 2, 5, 7, and 9 from a montage and as far as I know, it's not possible and as you mention, assigning a track to group B sets all the following tracks to group B and so on down the line."

Correct. I want to create non consecutive groups from the CD Dialog window that may not be in order. I don't understand why it selects every track...seems like an easy thing to change and would make it more useful.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by bob99 » Mon May 28, 2018 9:43 pm

plyman wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:29 pm
Correct. I want to create non consecutive groups from the CD Dialog window that may not be in order. I don't understand why it selects every track...seems like an easy thing to change and would make it more useful.
It selects every track because it was designed to make mostly vinyl sides easy, and I think it was Justin's idea to add the groups to do this in the first place (I think, sorry if I'm wrong). But it's a great feature.

One question: are you using processing on the CD tracks? If so and it's slow processing, one advantage of doing them one at a time (by rendering "Specific Region" or "Selected CD Track") is that you could start them one after the other and they would run in separate processes/cores so total render time would be that much less.

If you render a group, it won't run separate processes.

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Re: CD Groups

Post by plyman » Mon May 28, 2018 9:56 pm

bob99 wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:43 pm
plyman wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:29 pm
Correct. I want to create non consecutive groups from the CD Dialog window that may not be in order. I don't understand why it selects every track...seems like an easy thing to change and would make it more useful.
It selects every track because it was designed to make mostly vinyl sides easy, and I think it was Justin's idea to add the groups to do this in the first place (I think, sorry if I'm wrong). But it's a great feature.

One question: are you using processing on the CD tracks? If so and it's slow processing, one advantage of doing them one at a time (by rendering "Specific Region" or "Selected CD Track") is that you could start them one after the other and they would run in separate processes/cores so total render time would be that much less.

If you render a group, it won't run separate processes.
I'm not doing any processing when I export tracks from the CD dialog. All the processing is rendered/captured. I always render the entire montage first.

Here's an example of where I would use it: Client loves the initial masters, but wants revisions to tracks 1, 5 and 10. I'd love to update the montage with those changes and then output only those tracks by assigning them to a different group.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by Justin P » Mon May 28, 2018 10:23 pm

Yes, I always thought the name "CD Track Groups" would lead to some confusion as it was really just implemented in version 9 to assign consecutive tracks to a group so you can render sides for vinyl and cassette, and create a "Audio CD Track Report" (also confusing name) that correctly corresponds to each rendered file from CD Track Groups.

In other words, so the report for side B which might start at 20 minutes in the montage makes sense with the actual audio file for side B which of course starts at 0:00

Maybe PG will consider allowing CD Track Groups to be non-consecutive or some other way to address your need.

For my workflow, I just render a new continuous file of the montage, even if just one song changes but I may have a unique workflow. I like to render all the audio first in one pass to avoid plugin glitches on overlapping tracks before I render single WAVs of each song. This way all the processing (besides the dithering) is locked in and can be checked.

Then as a side note, the time it takes to render 3 tracks or 12 tracks from this point is nearly the same. Very fast so I've never looked in to rendering just certain random tracks from the montage. With my workflow it's all or nothing I guess.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by Arjan P » Mon May 28, 2018 11:27 pm

plyman wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:56 pm
Here's an example of where I would use it: Client loves the initial masters, but wants revisions to tracks 1, 5 and 10. I'd love to update the montage with those changes and then output only those tracks by assigning them to a different group.
If I understand correctly you use the word 'track' for, say 'song'. In that case simply selecting the clips you need is the easiest way. Simply click on them while holding CTRL and render 'selected clips'. If however your 'song' consists of several clips each, it would be easier to render by 'regions'.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by bob99 » Mon May 28, 2018 11:47 pm

plyman wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:56 pm
I'd love to update the montage with those changes and then output only those tracks by assigning them to a different group.
I second a feature request to do this. To assign CD Tracks to groups one by one, or by multi select, without affecting group assigns of other tracks. Maybe by holding a qualifier key or something.
Justin P wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:00 pm
I think the original poster is looking for a way to render say tracks 2, 5, 7, and 9 from a montage and as far as I know, it's not possible
I was going to say you can do this, and you can, but there's a bug when you go to render. To assign those non-consecutive 2, 5, 7, 9 tracks to a single group (in this case Group A), do this:

1. Set Track 1 to group B
2. Set Track 2 to group A
3. Set Track 3 to group B
4. Set Track 5 to group A
5. Set Track 6 to group B
6. Set Track 7 to group A
7. Set Track 8 to group B
8. Set Track 9 to group A
9. Set Track 10 to group B

(that leaves only 2, 5, 7, and 9 in Group A. No other tracks in Group A.)

10. Render "All CD Tracks in Group A".

The problem is there's a bug, and it only renders Track 2, the first Track in Group A.

Besides which it's too much unnecessary work.

But it does seem a bug that needs fixing.

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Re: CD Groups

Post by Justin P » Tue May 29, 2018 1:39 am

With my workflow, there are times when clips are not always the exact length of the CD track, especially if you care about the tracks being in sync with CD frames.

Right now there is an option to render "Selected CD Track". I'm not sure how WaveLab determines the selected CD Track but it seems like the best option would be to expand this option to render "Selected CD Track(s)" and the user can shift+click to select more than one track, even if they are non-consecutive tracks.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by plyman » Tue May 29, 2018 3:42 pm

Thanks for the replies. I know and understand the workarounds (been a WL user for 13+ years). I just want more functionality out of this feature.

Clip rendering is not an option for the same reason Justin stated. Has to be sample accurate with the CD track.

Seems like an easy fix. Just allow users the ability to assign any cd track to any group.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by Rat » Thu May 31, 2018 1:49 am

Justin P wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:39 am
With my workflow, there are times when clips are not always the exact length of the CD track, especially if you care about the tracks being in sync with CD frames.
Yes ... this is very important to me and I am sure to others who regularly work for labels.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by bob99 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:32 am

Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere else, but I can't find it if it has.
In 9.5.35, Rendering to "Multiple Outputs" - "All CD Tracks in Group" - doesn't seem to work. Get an error message.
Doing the same thing from the same montage in 9.1 works ok.

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Re: CD Groups

Post by Justin P » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:39 pm

I'll have to check this later today when I am at a computer that can open WaveLab.

I render CD track groups all the time for vinyl pre-masters I guess I don't to multiple output. I just do one file for side A, and one for side B.
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Re: CD Groups

Post by bob99 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:25 pm

bob99 wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:32 am
Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere else, but I can't find it if it has.
In 9.5.35, Rendering to "Multiple Outputs" - "All CD Tracks in Group" - doesn't seem to work. Get an error message.
Doing the same thing from the same montage in 9.1 works ok.
Can anyone else confirm this? Thanks.

Windows 10.

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Re: CD Groups

Post by PG » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:43 pm

It works here. What error message do you get?
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Re: CD Groups

Post by bob99 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:13 am

PG wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:43 pm
It works here. What error message do you get?
Thanks for checking it out PG. The message I was getting was "You have specified you want to render regions but there are none in the audio source". But now I'm getting inconsistent results, so I'm still trying to figure it out.

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