Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

General discussions on songwriting, mixing, music business and other music related topics.
User avatar
Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:55 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Steinberg »

Headlands wrote:For the few of you here that experience Cubase using CPU power as efficiently as other DAWs, I would ask you get in touch with Steinberg support and tell them your setups in detail -- that could help the many users (if this and other forums such as Gearslutz and KVR are any evidence) that are experiencing the opposite. Windows or Mac, I and plenty of others have Cubase falling way behind DAWs like Pro Tools and Reaper, especially.
We would actually need to be contacted by users experiencing issues, as far as I know we have been seeing a performance degradation only on one system in-house. Although it was very useful taking performance traces on that one, it's best to analyse more systems, as this could help to understand which combinations trigger an issue.
Would not be really useful to analyse a system like the one used for this test as it shows consistent performance across DAWs: viewtopic.php?f=226&t=93206#p519220

We have a few tasks related to performance open, at least one should already be included in 8.5.20 (this mostly relates to levelling the performance across systems IIRC), but it's an on-going process - the more data we get, the better.

Kind regards,

Arne Scheffler
Steinberg Employee
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:12 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Arne Scheffler »

Headlands wrote:So, this is independent of any silent channel optimization, I'm afraid, especially since Reaper and Studio One share the exact same plugins (all VST) that Cubase uses, on my computer.
So, you like the fact that you have inserted a plug-in and the host is not processing it. In live situations this kind of non processing a plug-in will fail miserably. This may not be your use case, but it's a use case some Cubase users rely on.
When all plug-ins would implement the silent channel optimisation both use cases would be possible to handle.

User avatar
sonicstate
Member
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by sonicstate »

Can you Steinberg Tech experts put together official test benchmark project with Steinberg plugins only, so we can all download it and run it, and compare how it performs on our machines? You could even make several test setups, one more for audio, another more for instruments. Then there could be a thread on this forum where users could post results, together with their configurations, and from this it would be easily visible what component combinations work well and which cause problems.

It would be very helpful to me if I could know that somebody can run 80 tracks without dropouts, and I can only run 20 tracks with exactly the same project. For example, I have a strange feeling that something is wrong if I get crackles after loading 5 Halion SE synths. But I'm not really sure, maybe it is just that HSE is very inefficient? Also it depends on sound used, some sounds are easier on CPU. Would be nice to have an official benchmark project with just HSE, to be able to compare.
Cubase Pro 8.5, Win 64bit, i7-4770K @4.3GHz, ASUS Z87-K, 16Gb, RME HDSP 9652, BCF 2000, BCR 2000, Novation Launchpad Mini, M-Audio TriggerFinger, M-Audio Axiom AIR Mini 32, Korg NanoKey, plenty outboard synths and fx, 24ch Studiomaster mixer, Yamaha NS10s, Dynaudio BM5, Samson Rubicon R8a Ribbon, etc...

User avatar
Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:55 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Steinberg »

sonicstate wrote:Can you Steinberg Tech experts put together official test benchmark project with Steinberg plugins only, so we can all download it and run it, and compare how it performs on our machines?
Entirely possible, we've done this already both via support and the forums, no problem in doing it again.
sonicstate wrote:I have a strange feeling that something is wrong if I get crackles after loading 5 Halion SE synths. But I'm not really sure, maybe it is just that HSE is very inefficient?
It sounds like there is something wrong indeed. Although with VSTi it can get tricky - some patches can indeed be very, very heavy, and one have to take into account the different CPU impact coming from a different use of the various instances (sever instances with one patch vs. fewer instances with multiple sounds).

User avatar
Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 1402
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:55 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Steinberg »

Headlands wrote: Thanks, Fabio. It's possible that those of us experiencing issues are in the minority, outside of the forums...even though it's hard to believe since I've seen it across both a Windows machine that I had and my current trashcan Mac Pro, and two other composers I know here in L.A. (one on Windows, one on Mac). Last Thursday I had a songwriting session at someone else's studio here in L.A. -- he said that Cubase has this issue for him and that he's also looking into other options.

Is there someone specifically we should get in touch with? I would be very happy to help in great detail with this. I did contact Steinberg about six months ago about it, but the tech didn't go very deep into things.

People here with problems NEED to report it to Steinberg!
I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret writing this, but one would be surprised to know that the amount of people with performance issues so far was not enough to even allow us to put together useful comparative lists of system specs.

Although we found that performance issues are more common under certain circumstances, for example and without getting too much into the details:

-- Specific chipsets
-- Specific GPU / video driver versions
-- Plug-ins using OpenGL (Mac especially)
-- Plug-ins with problematic multi-core processing
-- CPU with 6 or 12 cores
-- How some VSTi access memory

On the other hand, we have users with systems having all of those characteristics which have great performance. Not a very focussed target.

Please, get in touch with me, I follow many performance-related topics. PM is fine to start.
Headlands wrote: Fabio -- I strongly suggest you put something together like this.
I will start another thread about test-projects ASAP. Although I can and do test on Mac at work, my personal DAW is Windows, I'll probably ask someone using a Mac for actual production to join.

User avatar
agilkds
New Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:08 pm
Location: Lisbon Portugal
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by agilkds »

Hi guys.
Just one simple question: you're all talking about CPU issues, under Mac OSX systems right?
Because i have Cubase 8.5.15 in Win 7 Enterprise (64 bit) with MOTU hardware, and in Mac OSX El Capitan with Presonus hardware, and the main difference is that in OSX i don't have the "Activate Steinberg Power Scheme", like i have in Windows.
And this simple situation does a hell of a big thing.
Loading the same project (about 55 audio tracks, and 25 MIDI - Halion and Kontakt - plus busses full of VST and automation), in Win i get about 45/55% CPU, in Mac i get about 65/75% CPU usage. Buffer is 128 in both hardware.
I don't know the reason why the power sheme is not available in Mac OSX.
If Steinberg could fix this, than things could go better.
All the best
KDS Recording Studios (Lisbon - Portugal) - Nuendo 10.3 (64bit); Cubase Pro 10.5 (64 bit); Wavelab Pro10 (64 bit); CMC FD (x2); CMC TP; CMC CH; CMC QC; Focusrite Liquid Mix 32; MOTU 424 + 24I/O + 2408 mk3 + 2408 mk2 + 1224 MK2; Mutec Master Clock; Soundcraft Vienna II mixer (+ a lot of analog equipment) \ Win10 Pro, i7 core, 32 gig RAM

User avatar
Grim
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5064
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Grim »

Have recently been reading over at Gearslutz reports of greatly improved DAW performance after disabling hyperthreading on Mac using Xcode software.
For Mac users with poor performance this might be worth investigating.
i7 5820k @3.7Ghz, 16Gb, W10Pro, Cubase 9.0x, Cubase 8.5.x, Audient iD22, Zoom UAC-2, Wavelab Elements 9.x, Nektar Impact GX61

JT3Jon
Member
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:16 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by JT3Jon »

Grim wrote:Have recently been reading over at Gearslutz reports of greatly improved DAW performance after disabling hyperthreading on Mac using Xcode software.
For Mac users with poor performance this might be worth investigating.
How old is that information?! I remember WAAAAY back when hyperthreading was introduced that cubase couldn't handle it, but I'm pretty sure that was fixed. But maybe I'm wrong?
Cubase 9.5.41 OS10.12.6 MacPro 12-core 3.33Ghz, 64GB RAM, UA Apollo

User avatar
Grim
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 5064
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Grim »

How old is that information?!
To be absolutely clear, Cubase was not mentioned....it came up in relation to spiking issues with Acustica Aqua plugins, but some responses mentioned it gave an overall improvement in performance. (I think PT users)

So please don't get your hopes up too much as this is only a couple users and as far as I could tell they are not even using Cubase...but there's one sure way to find out if it helps your performance problems.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11880050-post1133.html
i7 5820k @3.7Ghz, 16Gb, W10Pro, Cubase 9.0x, Cubase 8.5.x, Audient iD22, Zoom UAC-2, Wavelab Elements 9.x, Nektar Impact GX61

User avatar
AP
Member
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by AP »

The NI Kontakt Player is CPU intensive... If you load over 50-75 VSTi you will notice performance issues. Halion SE and
Retrologue 2 other hand. One can load up to 200 VSTi in Cubase. I also noticed NI are the only VSTi 2.4 still in my system. After their recent updates...

I usually load a maximum of 8 NI VST therefore they're never an issue for me. I guess NI need to improve their VSTi
to be more CPU efficient in Cubase. Since Steinberg has to make their DAW efficient on OSX and Windows machines.

You Film and TV music producers use a lot of instruments. :shock:
Cubase Pro 10.5. 15” MacBook Pro i7, 16 GB Ram, OS 10.14 UR28M, CMC.

GPnicolett
Member
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:11 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by GPnicolett »

You Film and TV music producers use a lot of instruments. :shock:
Hah :) Well as I said in an earlier post, I don't use 80 at one time! But there can easily be that many "sounds" in the palette that one uses to score a TV show. And with time crunches and the need for consistency it's important to have all these instruments up and ready to go. Because we don't just deliver stereo mixes - we have to deliver 10-24 mix "stems," which are cut up and re worked at the sound stage. Can you imagine how long it would take to load up each instrument one by one as I needed it, set the levels, reverb, EQ, route it to the proper stem, set up any custom control parameters, etc....too long.

Of course you could also just score a TV show with a single piano or guitar. Depends on the show. Infact I might argue the number of instruments uses increases in inverse proportion to the artistic aspirations of the show....bigger score usually means shallower content! But not always. Anyway, digress.

The reason VEPro is so popular amongst composers is because we needed to load these large templates. But when I saw that Logic could load my entire template and not break a sweat, WITHOUT the need for the complexity of VEPro, I had to make a change. A change I clearly REGRET to some extent, since I'm still posting here!! :?
Greg Nicolett | Composer
http://www.gregnicolett.com
Cubase 10, Mojave, Mac Mini 6-core i7, 64gbRAM, RME Fireface 802

vudoo
Junior Member
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:05 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by vudoo »

I can easily instantiate 85 kontakt plug-ins with instruments loaded in each of them and ready to go on my 12 core trashcan.

The weird thing is with 85 instances my meter is barely at 20% but if i add another 10 instances, the meter will hit roof and the Cubase will overload.

IFM
Junior Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by IFM »

jorisdeman wrote: Hey, just out of curiosity, how do you use Mainstage with Cubase, esp. when it comes to audio routing?
I've been wanting to use Alchemy but haven't found an easy way of routing it into C8 yet...

Sorry for the delay. I either have MS running on a MPB or on the main MP and use the loop back audio port of my Sapphire Pro 40 to get the audio back in.

Chris
http://www.christophercaouette.com
Mac Pro 6,1 12 Core, 64GB RAM, Mojave, Cubase 10.5

GPnicolett
Member
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:11 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by GPnicolett »

The weird thing is with 85 instances my meter is barely at 20% but if i add another 10 instances, the meter will hit roof and the Cubase will overload.
Same experience here, but I top out at around 50-60. Of course I have a 12 core from 2010, so this makes sense.
Greg Nicolett | Composer
http://www.gregnicolett.com
Cubase 10, Mojave, Mac Mini 6-core i7, 64gbRAM, RME Fireface 802

PeppaPig
Member
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by PeppaPig »

Look, we all know the odd character (fan boy?) will pop up saying they can run 15 gazillion vsts with their Cubase inatall - But - we all know deep down that Cubase CPU efficiently stinks compared to the other major DAWs. It just does. I love Cubase, I love the workflow, I love the tools - just fix the ****ing engine so this is no longer a discussion.

Yeah, your setup runs great - bully you - either fix the sodding software or publish a performant hardware spec we can all aim for - I'm sick to death of running hardware that would have got us to the moon 25 times over but can't produce a pop tune in Cubase - just fix it!
Cubase Pro 10.00.40, 9.5, Pro9.0.20. WaveLab 9 EL. UA Apollo Quad FW, UA PCI Octo, UA Satelite Quad, Adam T5V, Golden Audio pre73 DLX, Behringer ADA8200, Joe Meek AC3, Intel i7 6850x@4.2Ghz (6C/12T), Asus x99 Deluxe II, AMD 6450 HD, Windows 10 Pro, Samsung 860 and 850 SSDs, 64Gb RAM - Melodyne Studio, Komplete ultimate 11, Halion 6, GA,GA2,GA3,GA4 (+sp), OZ6, OZ7, OZ8 adv, Neutron Adv, BFD3, SoundToys rack, Panorama P1, M-Audio Oxygen, Yamaha YPP55 - outboard: PRO VLAII, Digitech Time machine RDS4000, 1950s Ferrograph Series 5, Mics: AKG C1000S, Rode NT2A and M5 pair, SE2200A, SE X1R, Fame-VT67 (cheap valve U67 clone), Heil PR20&PR22, Behringer Mic2200 used for reamping with a bit of nastiness!

Getalife2
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Getalife2 »

I hope to never hear the song made with 300 instances of Kontakt.
N10.3 - i7 5960X/32 GB at 4 GHz Win 7 Pro 64bit - 2x RME MADI - 3X UAD-2 Quad

User avatar
AP
Member
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by AP »

300 instruments can produce hits for a decade like the Yamaha DX7, Korg M1 or Roland... On the other hand I can understand film and tv music producers need lots of sounds.

There's many VSTi available on the market including NI the most successful sounds on the market.

Their libraries are massive. Nowadays one can easily have 25,000 to 50,000 sounds in a DAW/library. The question is which synths/sounds are your favourites and how do you find them fast? How CPU efficient are they?

Which DAW can handle 100-200 kontakt instrument? Can logic or any other DAW handle it? And is the workflow as smooth as Cubase? How's the sound quality?
Cubase Pro 10.5. 15” MacBook Pro i7, 16 GB Ram, OS 10.14 UR28M, CMC.

IFM
Junior Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by IFM »

vudoo wrote:I can easily instantiate 85 kontakt plug-ins with instruments loaded in each of them and ready to go on my 12 core trashcan.

The weird thing is with 85 instances my meter is barely at 20% but if i add another 10 instances, the meter will hit roof and the Cubase will overload.
Now I'm turning the page and see the problem!
This morning I decided to do the scenario you described. I started with a blank project and added 80 instances...no problem. Added another 8 and I want from 20-25% to 45-50%. Another 10 and I was solid peaking both meters.

Now I'm starting to reconsider my choices.

Chris

EDIT: Apparently this only applies to Kontakt as I tried several other VST's such as Omnisphere and Engine. None of them exhibited the behavior that Kontakt did when you go over 90 instances. I can't really blame Steinberg on this one as the issue seems to be with Kontakt and VST.
http://www.christophercaouette.com
Mac Pro 6,1 12 Core, 64GB RAM, Mojave, Cubase 10.5

GPnicolett
Member
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:11 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by GPnicolett »

This morning I decided to do the scenario you described. I started with a blank project and added 80 instances...no problem. Added another 8 and I want from 20-25% to 45-50%. Another 10 and I was solid peaking both meters.
I documented this in one of my earlier posts, in this thread. For me, on a slower system, I was topping out around 50-60 Kontakts before seeing the exponential jump.

The good news is that we've identified the problem. There seems to be finite resources that Kontakts, even while idle, eventually gobble up, and once those resources are filled no more can be added.

It seems that this is mostly affecting us on OS X.

This limitation is the last reason why VEPRO is still essential for film/tv composers using Cubase...but again, as Logic is showing, it's a limitation that can be gotten around. And for many of us, the advantages of instrument tracks outweigh multi-timbrals enough to make switching to Logic worth the downgrade in interface and functionality.
Greg Nicolett | Composer
http://www.gregnicolett.com
Cubase 10, Mojave, Mac Mini 6-core i7, 64gbRAM, RME Fireface 802

IFM
Junior Member
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by IFM »

GPnicolett wrote: I documented this in one of my earlier posts, in this thread. For me, on a slower system, I was topping out around 50-60 Kontakts before seeing the exponential jump.

The good news is that we've identified the problem. There seems to be finite resources that Kontakts, even while idle, eventually gobble up, and once those resources are filled no more can be added.

It seems that this is mostly affecting us on OS X.

This limitation is the last reason why VEPRO is still essential for film/tv composers using Cubase...but again, as Logic is showing, it's a limitation that can be gotten around. And for many of us, the advantages of instrument tracks outweigh multi-timbrals enough to make switching to Logic worth the downgrade in interface and functionality.
Yep I read that post. It does totally suck. I think perhaps with some time you might find the LPX interface 2nd nature like you did with Cubase. There are some things about it I liked better. You do have me seriously thinking of going back.

BTW they did add stem bouncing now in LPX. I did experience some offline bounce issues in Cubase causing me to always have to do it in real-time. I never had a bounce issue in LPX. There also is an add-on to give you similar functionality that Expression Maps did.

Chris
http://www.christophercaouette.com
Mac Pro 6,1 12 Core, 64GB RAM, Mojave, Cubase 10.5

User avatar
AP
Member
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by AP »

IFM wrote:
vudoo wrote:I can easily instantiate 85 kontakt plug-ins with instruments loaded in each of them and ready to go on my 12 core trashcan.

The weird thing is with 85 instances my meter is barely at 20% but if i add another 10 instances, the meter will hit roof and the Cubase will overload.
Now I'm turning the page and see the problem!
This morning I decided to do the scenario you described. I started with a blank project and added 80 instances...no problem. Added another 8 and I want from 20-25% to 45-50%. Another 10 and I was solid peaking both meters.

Now I'm starting to reconsider my choices.

Chris

EDIT: Apparently this only applies to Kontakt as I tried several other VST's such as Omnisphere and Engine. None of them exhibited the behavior that Kontakt did when you go over 90 instances. I can't really blame Steinberg on this one as the issue seems to be with Kontakt and VST.
Yes this is a NI kontakt issue. NI VSTi should be more efficient. This is not a Cubase/Steinberg issue...
Cubase Pro 10.5. 15” MacBook Pro i7, 16 GB Ram, OS 10.14 UR28M, CMC.

GPnicolett
Member
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:11 am
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by GPnicolett »

this is a NI kontakt issue. NI VSTi should be more efficient. This is not a Cubase/Steinberg issue...
Maybe so, but seeing as Kontakt has a monopoly on the sampler market, Steinberg might need to be the party that addresses this.

Again, Logic makes it work.
Greg Nicolett | Composer
http://www.gregnicolett.com
Cubase 10, Mojave, Mac Mini 6-core i7, 64gbRAM, RME Fireface 802

User avatar
AP
Member
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by AP »

GPnicolett wrote:
this is a NI kontakt issue. NI VSTi should be more efficient. This is not a Cubase/Steinberg issue...
Maybe so, but seeing as Kontakt has a monopoly on the sampler market, Steinberg might need to be the party that addresses this.

Again, Logic makes it work.
It could be that Audio Units for Mac logic work differently therefore more efficient...
Cubase Pro 10.5. 15” MacBook Pro i7, 16 GB Ram, OS 10.14 UR28M, CMC.

mbr
Member
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by mbr »

Softsynths in Logic rocks also... :roll:
Cubase 9.5 Recordings done @ 96 kHz / 64 Bit )

Win 7 64-bit SP1 ; i7 Intel @3.50 Hz ; 32 Gigs RAM
256 GB SSD OS ; 1 TB SSD for Recording ; 1 TB SSD for Sample Streaming

Soundcard - O1V96i
Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver V1.9.11 Firmware V1.02 Editor V1.0

UAD-2 (OCTO) ; CMC ( FD, CH, PD, TP, AI & QC )
Many hardware synths and sample libraries ; Millennia ; Midisport 8/8 ; BIG BEN Apogee

Forum member (old forums) since 2003

"The internet is a source of infinite information; the vast majority of which happens to be wrong"

Getalife2
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 3:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Why I'm Switching to Logic (for now)

Post by Getalife2 »

AP wrote:300 instruments can produce hits for a decade like the Yamaha DX7, Korg M1 or Roland... On the other hand I can understand film and tv music producers need lots of sounds.
I mean 300 instances of Kontakt running simultaneously. I'm pretty sure nobody ever produced a song with 300 instances of a DX7 running! Increased computer power is rapidly producing wretched excess in music making.

I'm well aware of film composer's needs. My best friend just returned from the ASCAP event where he picked up his award for composing (and playing and mixing) one of the #1 Box Office films last year. 300 Kontakts playing at the same time? I don't think so.

These days, when mixing, I'm just seeing too many cases of "I paid for all this stuff, so I am going to USE it all on every song". To the rear, march!

And now, back on topic.
N10.3 - i7 5960X/32 GB at 4 GHz Win 7 Pro 64bit - 2x RME MADI - 3X UAD-2 Quad

Locked

Return to “Steinberg Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests