Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

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J L Bowie
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by J L Bowie »

Vocalpoint wrote:
TechBytes wrote:Where have I stated wanting to pay $149.00-$199.00 ?
Better question is - why not just take what they are giving? Are you trying to give Steinberg ideas about charging more?
TechBytes wrote:In terms of enhancements, no more or less for those who used Cubase 5.x
Since when has Cubase ever been on the same level of Nuendo - don't imply that it is - because it isn't.
TechBytes wrote:Why do you feel any more entitled to the added features of Cubase 6 , than those who paid for them going from Cubase 5.x ?
Hmm...let me see...

1. Nuendo is twice as much money as Cubase. For that fact alone - Nuendo users should always expect and get ALL new enhancements, features, fixes and anything else that a premium price brings. And they should get them first - not Cubase. However if that's NOT the case - then lower my price down to Cubase level and let the fray begin.

2. In this specific case - Steinberg was WELL underway building all these new goodies into the forthcoming C6 way back when Nueudo 5 was rolled out in June 2010. Then a mere 6 months later (after a very dry period in the way of ANYTHING - updates, fixes, new feature for those of us who bought N5) they announce C6 with all this excellent stuff. A lot of us went Huh? What about us?

3. N5 has had a pile of bugs - big (anyone remember the running out of RAM while doing long recordings), to the video engine to the smaller (just general upkeep type stuff) and a long list of feature requests (big , small and otherwise) since June of 2010 and by my count - we have had 90 bug fixes...but it seems that actual improvements have been hard to come by. Now - if that was the plan - so be it - but my expectations were much higher - especially with things like the highly touted Batch Export...it's about as unusable to me as can be.

4. Finally - I waited 3 bloody years for Nuendo to move at a glacial pace from V4 to V5...and now I find out from Timo that the entire development methods, trees, build methodology and every thing has suddenly changed again with Cubase 6...to be honest - I am just *quiz* off since buying the most expensive software that Steinberg makes counts for basically nothing in the long run. At this price point - Nuendo users should be given a single Cubase seat for free - every time this idiotic leapfrogging occurs - at least I would feel better about my purchase. But watching the Cubase gang get some really useful stuff - first again as usual - and then waiting months to get it on our platform is a bloody pain in the ass....

5. Did I mention Nuendo costs twice as much?

VP
Nothing to disagree with here, Bruce, I'm with you, just don't have the energy to bang my head against the wall anymore. As you know I have both Cubase 6 and Nuendo 5.1.1 on separate systems here, but of late have been using Cubase 6 more and more and with rare exception can barely tell them apart, except that for now Cubase is more feature rich than Nuendo and it has become my preference. If one is making a purchase decision now between Nuendo and Cubase, I could not advise Nuendo unless you need the Networking capability. For people flying solo Nuendo offers little other than a drain on your wallet and patience. Talking to Steinberg is like paddling upstream with a broom handle, your best effort still leaves you washed out to sea.
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

J L Bowie wrote:As you know I have both Cubase 6 and Nuendo 5.1.1 on separate systems here, but of late have been using Cubase 6 more and more and with rare exception can barely tell them apart, except that for now Cubase is more feature rich than Nuendo and it has become my preference.
J.L.,

Well - there it is. When I see comments like this - it's getting hard not to imagine a world without Nuendo in the coming years. I simply do not understand why Steinberg even bothers trying to maintain both of these...it certainly can't be for the money - because I cannot see some 6 figure user base out there using Nueudo - conversely - I am certain that Cubase easily exceeds that mark....

Sad times ahead my friend....

VP
Bruce McDonald
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by TechBytes »

Vocalpoint wrote:
TechBytes wrote:Where have I stated wanting to pay $149.00-$199.00 ?
Better question is - why not just take what they are giving? Are you trying to give Steinberg ideas about charging more?
Go back and read my first post , where was it in any way about costing the upgrade/update ?

What I simply stated was that they should take the opportunity to align the version numbers and charge whatever they felt appropriate.

As to all of the other listed reasons, absolutely and totally irrelevant !!

The price variance between Nuendo and Cubase has absolutely nothing to do with it, my 2nd point was simply that the next version will have the added features that one section of the combined user base had to pay for. Nothing you have noted proves to me you are more deserving.

Re the perpetual bugs and leap frogging.., well you have been here long enough to know that nothing has changed.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by TimoWildenhain »

Lydiot wrote:
Don't call it a "handling fee". Call it what it is, which is a price for updating the software (or upgrading, I thought there was a difference, perhaps there is not). If you call it a "handling fee" people will rightfully point out that a download has virtually no cost to it, so charging for it is nonsense.
Ok, these were just my own words, so if you like let's call it "small update fee" that covers the
update development costs. By the way, every download in the shop generates real
costs, as the shop provider also wants to get a share. So nothing is for free.

Thanks,
Timo
Timo Wildenhain - Head of Business Unit
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by olamo »

Hello Timo,

I think many Nuendo users feel that this is all back to square 1 - the never ending leapfrogging and uncertainty of the future of Nuendo. What's all this mysteriy around Cubase and Nuendo? When you choose to go with an application you also want to predict what is coming in the nearest future. I think that we have to pay for an upgrade to get the new Cubase 6 features less than a year after version 5 release is not a good move - even though it is a small fee (whatever that really means..). And the ongoing question, how will Nuendo be this time around? With NEK? or not even with NEK and only so-called "post pro"?

I have sold my Cubase License and will not pay for a new one. If Nuendo can't cover it, I'll be using other software.
This is a mess, really. And there is a reason for the frustration shared in user community.

Maybe, the next INSIDE session should be about update cycles, diversing features and branding? :D

TC,
Ola

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MattiasNYC
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by MattiasNYC »

TimoWildenhain wrote:Ok, these were just my own words, so if you like let's call it "small update fee" that covers the
update development costs. By the way, every download in the shop generates real
costs, as the shop provider also wants to get a share. So nothing is for free.
So how do you decide if you're going to charge to cover your costs or not? Is it just a coincidence that you'd charge for this update and not the last one?
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by DTSR »

TimoWildenhain wrote:Bruce,

this is not as simple as it seems to be. Version numbers are one story, the code basis is another.
Cubase 6 was developed one a partly different code base, a new, fresh one. We could simply
do it like some other vendors, just adding features and let the code base get old. In fact, with
every new Nuendo/Cubase update, we are constantly renewing large parts of the code (and I
don't mean the new features only).

So the first build of Nuendo 5 and Cubase 6 are not on the same development branch. That's why
"simply adding features" is not so simple in reality. Nuendo 5.5 will also be based on the new
development branch, but that cannot be done "overnight" and requires some time. That's the
technical reason.

Thanks,
Timo
with all due repsect, these excuses are immaterial, because it is a very simple issue: we are still in the version 5 product cycle. Steinberg having to rewrite crappy code is not our problem, so expecting users to pay anything at all for an update, within the current cycle, is laughable, and it really does nothing to encourage product patronage, it's bad business, give us a free downloadable 5.5 update and call it quits until N6, because, as pointed out by others here, we are already paying through the nose for Nuendo, relative to Cubase.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

DTSR wrote:With all due repsect, these excuses are immaterial, because it is a very simple issue: we are still in the version 5 product cycle. Steinberg having to rewrite crappy code is not our problem, so expecting users to pay anything at all for an update, within the current cycle, is laughable, and it really does nothing to encourage product patronage, it's bad business, give us a downloadable 5.5 update and call it quits until N6.
+1. This was a tough one for me to comment on with Timo. I want to try to remain professional however - you are right. I do not really care about the internals on this. Rewriting code and improving things are par for the course and I fully expect that to happen as part of my admission price.

Right now - I am really on the fence on whether I feel ripped off by having to pay for these new features - or cheesed off that the Cubase guys get all of this cool new stuff and we don't OR if I should just accept the fact that we (Nuendo) are in the V5 cycle for Nuendo and when we went into it (and bought into it) - NONE of this C6 stuff was promised, discussed or implied to have been part of this release.

If it's the latter - then I am feeling like a bit of a spoiled brat pointing at the C6 niceties and crying "WAAA...what about me!!"....:)

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Woodcrest Studio »

This is like the first time we'll have to pay for a x.5 update, right?


I have a lot of mixed emotions around this since there are a lot of valid points in this topic. I guess we'll see if we were fed a lot of lip service about things when we see the new feature list, like the hide track functionalities...

Small fee... Small in relation to what?

Leap frogging.. So this is the remedy?

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by zvenx »

I have really mixed views on the subject.

On the one hand these are a lot of new features, that quite frankly I will find useful.
On the other hand many of the new features in N5 which I know the post ppl have been excited about, for me were mostly useless and unimpressive and quite frankly N5 has been the first upgrade where I don't think for me it was worth the money.......

It starts a horrible precedent to start charging for .5 updates.... I usually buy the upgrades (N2,N3, N4 and N5) when it comes out with the hope of new features being added in the updates in that cycle.....

rsp
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

zvenx wrote:On the other hand many of the new features in N5 which I know the post ppl have been excited about, for me were mostly useless and unimpressive and quite frankly N5 has been the first upgrade where I don't think for me it was worth the money...
I agree. If I really think hard about it...V5 has been a bit of a wash for my specific workflow. I was so excited for things like Batch Export but after trying to make it work for several weeks back in summer 2010...I quickly abandoned it. As soon as Wavelab 7 came out....Nuendo never got the nod again for client work....

I could have easily stayed with V4 and been comfortable.

And I cannot help but feeling that despite what Steinberg is projecting here - the team that works on Nueudo and Cubase are one in the same and it's no surprise that while C6 is sporting all these jazzy new things - Nuendo gets left in the dust. You can only stretch the dev so far it seems.

Finally - yes - horrible precedent being set now with charging for this. I will begrudgingly accept it this time since I am already "all in" so to speak :)

Cheers,

VP
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by zvenx »

I thought it was one set of engineers/developers/programmers and just different project teams guiding them what features to incorporate.
rsp
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by DTSR »

Another aspect to this, and someone correct me if I am wrong, there is still no comparison chart, so a direct, point for point compare cannot be made between Cubase and Nuendo. This came up also before the upgrade to N5, and there was talk of it happening, I believe the American rep mentioned it, but it never appeared.

Now there are more changes, and the only way to actually quantify if the extra outlay for Nuendo was worth it, is to sit down and pick through both apps, which is a complete time waster.

Yes, I do use many of the post related features, I like them, but could probably get by without them, when there are other software tools that I could put that extra money towards instead: and just settle for C6.

Transparency with regard to exactly what differences there are at this point, would be helpful, because the leap-frogging serves only to obscure the fact that the apps have more in common than they have apart.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by MattiasNYC »

Those of you who think this is a "ripoff", or "kind'a like'a ripoff", are really not thinking it through I think.

Steinberg never announced and promised users specific new features to occur within the v5 cycle (at the time when most users bought v5). So anyone who bought v5 should have had realistic expectations on what functions were included. Feeling "ripped off" now is silly I think. It's like buying a new car, seeing another car have newer features, and then when the seller/manufacturer of your car says he can add those features to yours it'll cost you extra get upset about it.

Personally, I just think it's silly to call it a fee that covers a cost of a download, when all your other updates have the same cost (why wouldn't they). So clearly they want to get paid for the features, and so they should call it a paid update. I don't see a problem with that.

Only problem I see would be if there are outstanding issues (bugs) that aren't resolved prior to this paid update.
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by zvenx »

I can prove that hide unhide was promised in the N5 cycle....but for the most part most of the other things were assumed... based on history that more features would come..If that is about to change then fine.....it is within their purview to do so..just expect it to have consequences with my future expectations of being an early purchaser.

rsp
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

Lydiot wrote:Steinberg never announced and promised users specific new features to occur within the v5 cycle (at the time when most users bought v5). So anyone who bought v5 should have had realistic expectations on what functions were included. Feeling "ripped off" now is silly I think.
I humbly agree.

However - considering we (N5 gang) got just small a handful of bugfixes in the time frame between N5 hitting stores and the announcement of all this new stuff in C6 - and then it donned on many of us that all of this new stuff was being readied (since it's no secret the teams are the same) - while we got pretty much nothing - makes this sting more than a little bit.

I realize that my expectations are a lot higher than they should be - hindsight - it might have been better for Steiny to just say nothing and let us be with whatever we got. Instead - call me crazy - but Timo and the team hyped the V5 schedule to make it sound like a lot more was on the way...and they made it all sound like it was going to be free.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by DTSR »

Lydiot wrote:Those of you who think this is a "ripoff", or "kind'a like'a ripoff", are really not thinking it through I think.

Personally, I just think it's silly to call it a fee that covers a cost of a download, when all your other updates have the same cost (why wouldn't they). So clearly they want to get paid for the features, and so they should call it a paid update. I don't see a problem with that.

Only problem I see would be if there are outstanding issues (bugs) that aren't resolved prior to this paid update.
Not a question of feeling ripped off necessarily, more about knowing where ones money is going, and for what, and figuring out if, at this juncture, the additional cost is worthwhile. I don't own a big-budget post production studio, so maybe I should not have chosen Nuendo, because clearly they are targeting customers with deeper pockets, and know they can get away with this paid inter-cycle update. High end users pay, people like me moan.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by MattiasNYC »

Well, let me put it this way then:

I can see how if they promised new features within the cycle it's annoying if they then ask for money for it. I guess what my personal feeling is that:

A) We know that they have extremely sucky leapfrogging
B) That Cubase will therefore get music features much sooner than Nuendo
C) That Nuendo usually get significant new Cubase features at paid upgrades

Yeah, "hide" / "unhide" or whatever is probably important to a lot of users, and if promised within the cycle, should happen without pay. But as for new comprehensive features I definitely see it as normal to get paid for it.

As for version numbers, one way to make sense of it is that if you consider Nuendo to be a post app with partially it's own "life", then a major version number change should include major new post-features. So if this v5.5 contains only new Cubase features, and Cubase is the "music" app, then it makes sense to not go to v6.

Obviously, as many has pointed out, this albeit possibly in a "German" way logical way of doing things isn't necessarily winning over existing and potential customers. Just make it one app, one installer, and have different license levels strip features if you want to tier the products. Users have complained for years and years about this, so clearly it's not an entirely fantabulous way of going about things.
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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by DTSR »

Lydiot wrote:Well, let me put it this way then:

C) That Nuendo usually get significant new Cubase features at paid upgrades

As for version numbers, one way to make sense of it is that if you consider Nuendo to be a post app with partially it's own "life", then a major version number change should include major new post-features. So if this v5.5 contains only new Cubase features, and Cubase is the "music" app, then it makes sense to not go to v6.

OK so are those who decline the .5 upgrade going to have to pay more to upgrade to N6, than those who run with 5.5? that appears to be the suggestion, elsewhere on the board, pay a little extra for 5.5 and you will pay less for N6, so within one product cycle, there will now be two upgrade paths for existing N5 users when N6 arrives, it's just stupid (if this is indeed the intended outcome).
Last edited by DTSR on Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

DTSR wrote:OK so are those who decline the .5 upgrade going to have to pay more to upgrade to N6, than those who run with 5.5?
If this is the case - this is getting more ridiculous by the minute.....

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by DTSR »

Vocalpoint wrote:
DTSR wrote:OK so are those who decline the .5 upgrade going to have to pay more to upgrade to N6, than those who run with 5.5?
If this is the case - this is getting more ridiculous by the minute.....

VP

judging by the following statement, it would appear to be true:
TimoWildenhain wrote:
As I mentioned, it will only be a rather small fee. And the update price from 5.5 to 6 will also be reduced, later on.

Timo
I'm not really following the logic of this, it seems absurd, just give us the fricken 5.5 update free and quit all this fuss over a handling fee, then let us decide, when N6 rolls around, if we are still on board for N6.

I mean, are you guys then going to issue a Cubase 6.5 paid update?

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

DTSR wrote:I'm not really following the logic of this, it seems absurd
Well - it seems to me that the logic is now changed from:

"Pay a full upgrade fee when each new major version is introduced" '

to

"Pay a smaller upgrade fee EACH time new functionality is added regardless a major or point version"

Rather shrewd move by making each point upgrade cost that much smaller - it appears to Joe User that his cost is better - when in fact - Steinberg is collecting a little less cash but at a greater frequency - which has to have something to do with the bottom line...

As long as the cumulative cost of several point upgrades does not exceed that of a full upgrade (at major version time) I am cool with it.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by DTSR »

Vocalpoint wrote:
DTSR wrote:I'm not really following the logic of this, it seems absurd
Rather shrewd move by making each point upgrade cost that much smaller - it appears to Joe User that his cost is better - when in fact - Steinberg is collecting a little less cash but at a greater frequency - which has to have something to do with the bottom line...

VP
that would appear to make sense, if indeed it is the case, it's also possible they are trying to pull both applications up to some kind of parity, so this whole leap frogging thing is reduced in future, but I doubt it, we'll have to wait and see if this .5 differential holds true for Cubase also.

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Vocalpoint »

DTSR wrote:That would appear to make sense, if indeed it is the case, it's also possible they are trying to pull both applications up to some kind of parity, so this whole leap frogging thing is reduced in future, but I doubt it, we'll have to wait and see if this .5 differential holds true for Cubase also.
Well - if they want to try to sell me cool new stuff earlier instead of making us wait for years for a major upgrade - that's fine by me. One just needs to watch out for a quick slight of hand where suddenly a point upgrade starts costing us $199 or $299 dollars...

Given their recent track record for taking years to deliver new function and form where competitors are cranking out hot new full blown upgrades every year - sounds like they are trying to stay relevant by getting good stuff out faster at a cheaper price.

Still - if it was me in charge - I would put the immediate kibosh on having to produce BOTH Cubase and Nuendo and build this thing as a single entity with differing levels of function. I would retain the Cubase name (it's got the market share) and offer three levels of package. This way - they could crank out a lot more quality - a lot faster without leaving one group of users scratching their bag while the other group revels in hot new product.

We would all get hot new product at the same time - with no fuss or complaining about leap frogging....

But I digress...and gently step down off the soapbox...

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Re: Cubase 6 features / Nuendo 5

Post by Marsman »

One thing about the later updates, I always considered the Cubase crowd important to give feedback on features, and Nuendo users wont get the goods at an early stage but when the features have matured, based on user feedback of the Cubase users. I rely on Nuendo and for me its great and constantly getting better, although there are some gaps and issues, but no real showstoppers.

But I have to admit, something is strange about the paid x.5 update - even if it´s a small fee, charging for a mid cylce update never happened as far as I remember. There is some new planning going on behind the curtains of SB...
But as long as we do not know about the plans behind the new pricing policy and which prices we will actually pay, this is all pure speculation.

I wonder, will the small handling fee be the same for N5 and N5+NEK ? Will the non NEK users pay an even smaller "small handling fee"?

What the heck, we will be on SEQ generation code 6 anyway with N5.5, so why not calling N5.5 just N6 and pay the "small handling fee", so the obvious psychological jealousy which is going on here on Cubase version number 6 would be gone. Everyone would be happy for an incredibly low price for a full version upgrade and in two years from now SB releases Cubase Artist 7, Cubase 7 and Nuendo 7 on the very same day. Leapfrogging gone, but dont expect all Nuendo features will work as expected on day 1, because the Cubase user feedback WILL be missing.

EDIT: And please SB, work on an easy and logical upgrade path for Cubase Artist up to Nuendo, if you don´t know how to do it, check the VSL product website...
Last edited by Marsman on Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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