Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

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MattiasNYC
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by MattiasNYC »

Fredo wrote:The "problem" is called product management.
The product manager gets x-amount of development time, in x-amount of time, for x-amount of money.
Within these restrictions he needs to prioritize stuff, taking into account that a small bug can take more time than a big one, that there is a considerable risk factor in touching some area's (that it breaks something else), that an "action" might jeopardize future development and that some "re-designs" are already planned in the future. So anything a product manager decides is per definition the wrong decision for "someone"; just by the sheer fact that it is his job to pake decisions.

So, having to make these choices, taking into account all these parameters makes that there is no "black and white"/"fixed or not fixed", but a careful weighing of the issues and balancing the resources to get something done within a certain time, budget and priority. Which is the very opposite of a user complaining that "his most important bug" is not fixed with the highest priority.

Anyone who runs his/her own business -with success- has no other choice than agree with the above.
Anyone who presents it as being "black & white" doesn't has a clue what he/she is talking about.
Well I find it somewhat ironic of you to state that one either agrees with your opinion about it or don't have a clue, then say that if one doesn't one is guilty of "black/white thinking" essentially.

But be that as it may, I seem to recall other having pointed do different ways of developing products. So it may not be as cut and dry as you portray it.

And be that as it may, you are in effect confirming what many have said regarding the issue of managing resources (i.e not laying all the blame on the beta team). At the end of the day then we're looking at Steinberg as a whole in order to make sense out of it.

Like I said, N4 is a very good product, and it seems that N5 is better still. Yet for a audio-post-centric app certain things must work in order for there to be faith in the product/company. That's all I'm saying. And you are of course free to argue that this is all individual preferences, but I don't really see how one can make a compelling argument against video and omf/aaf import being essential in an audio post app.
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Fredo
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Fredo »

Lydiot wrote:Well I find it somewhat ironic of you to state that one either agrees with your opinion about it or don't have a clue, then say that if one doesn't one is guilty of "black/white thinking" essentially.

With all due respect, this is not what I said.
What I said is that the job description of a product manager is "balancing" all above mentioned parameters and prioritizing them. The "black & white" thinking is based on the assumption that there are unlimited resources avaialable and/or that anything should be dropped (no matter what the expense is) to fix an or any issue. Which simply isn't realistic.

I am not saying that anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot, I am saying that anyone who runs a business or is self-employed knows for a fact, that choices need to be made all of the time, each and every day. Otherwise everyone would now run an "Abbey Road-like" studio with truckloads of the "right" gear. So this is not about a disagreement, a different view on things, or conflicting opinions, but rather a non-realistic perception of doing business.

I am not providing excuses, I am just trying to put things in context, without any political agenda. To be precise, providing facts and accurate information in answer to the question why all known bugs are not fixed within the first maintenance cycle.

Fredo

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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by ltf3 »

HI

Did some follow up video playback testing here on Mac under OX 10.6.6

Used a 30 minute video file in the following formats


HD

Apple ProRes 422 HQ
Apple ProRes 422 (proxy)
Photo jPG
Photo jpG 2000

SD Versions

DV-NTSC
Prores 422 Proxy

*None* played smoothly in the native on screen player.
*None* worked using Apple Cinema Desktop (black screen)
All worked nicely with the BlackMagic Intensity Pro Card at both native sizes and resized, pulled down on the card.

All work fine In Logic natively, with the Cinema Desktop and with the Intensity Pro Card.

note that I didn't test with MJPEG (as I have recommended other use in this very forum) since it is now a Legacy CODEC in the Mac world. Users can't even access it in FCP, Compressor, QuickTime, or QT compatible apps without jumping through some significant system tweaking hoops. So it should not be considered a viable format for use in Nuendo

NOW...here's the kicker.

While testing I tried on of the PhotoJPG version using the Apple Cinema Desktop output on the Main Monitor. When I played the project the main screen went black ( expected that...) but now there's no way to switch the full screen output off!!!! The usual 'esc' key doesn't work, I've tried dozens of other keystrokes, I can get to the Nuendo Main menu but can't reset the video output mode 'cos the screen is always black, I can't Quit 'cos I can't click on the save menu and after Force quitting Nuendo launches in the same Video Mode ... ie a Black screen!!

LOL

Probably trash the prefs etc .... but I have to agree with others that this 'version' doesn't feel like anyone actually played a video in the thing ... ever .... during testing. And yes, I used to be a Cubase beta tester , I'm pretty sure I know the drill over there. I had the product exactly 35 minutes before I knew it didn't do the BIG thing it's meant to ... and 24 hours before I got it into an untenable state!

Worst of all, there where 2 other engineers there (who use Logic) to have a look at Nuendo after I'd been raving to them about how good the latest Cubase was. They left snickering, whether at me, or Steinberg I don't know. Sigh.

Just as frustrating as Version 3/4 .... which I bailed on years ago.... a Post Prod DAW (with great tools and features) that can't play video ...

This is very, very BAD.

Lee
Lee

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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Kid Dropper Sound »

Just a note on my observations..

I ask my clients for H264, best quality multipass

1920x1080 video is terrible
1280x720 (and smaller) isn't bad at all

All on N5.1.1 64 bit using onscreen window (fullscreen mode on 60in LED monitor)
I saved workspace presets with key commands to quickly move btw views

because of this limitation, I always ask for 1280x720 H264.mov
If the client can't do it, I resize with QTpro for my work picture.
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Rustami »

Kid Dropper Sound wrote:Just a note on my observations..

I ask my clients for H264, best quality multipass

1920x1080 video is terrible
1280x720 (and smaller) isn't bad at all

All on N5.1.1 64 bit using onscreen window (fullscreen mode on 60in LED monitor)
I saved workspace presets with key commands to quickly move btw views

because of this limitation, I always ask for 1280x720 H264.mov
If the client can't do it, I resize with QTpro for my work picture.
You'd better say your client to look at keyframes setting... Setting it to auto will not give you smooth video. Good value is every 24 frames. Or lesser (but in this case you will need higher bit-rate)...
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Rustami »

ltf3 wrote: Probably trash the prefs etc .... but I have to agree with others that this 'version' doesn't feel like anyone actually played a video in the thing ... ever .... during testing. And yes, I used to be a Cubase beta tester , I'm pretty sure I know the drill over there. I had the product exactly 35 minutes before I knew it didn't do the BIG thing it's meant to ... and 24 hours before I got it into an untenable state!

Dear Lee, now when ex-beta-tester said a word, I have to admit: yes, beta-testers did not test video at all! All they test is project notepad because it has funny feature that enlarges fonts with control+mouse scroll! And... LOL!

We have to omit though that you didn't care to specify your configuration and how exactly video has been produced.
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ltf3
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by ltf3 »

HI


My system for the test :

MacPro 2.66GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon, 8 Gig RAM, Radeon X1900 515 MB graphics, OS 10.6.6, QT X and QT 7.6 BlackMagic Intensity Pro, Dual Monitors (Eizo, Sony), Mackie MCU Pro USB Controllers, Presonus 2626 Firestation Firewire I/O,

Nuendo 5.1.1 compared to Logic 9.1.3 (plays all video fine)

Video originally shot on RED epic, transferred into Final Cut Pro 7 as Apple ProRes 422 HQ and edited. A master Apple ProRes 422 HQ version was exported as the source for all the subsequent 'test versions' for Nuendo. The test versions were made in Compressor 3.5.

Video was played back from a separate drive than the software and audio drives.

I will run playback tests on Cubase 6 soon ... have to find a bit of time to install it..

Best

Lee
Lee

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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Rustami »

The test versions were made in Compressor 3.5.
Which settings? And when you say they play back fine in Logic, does it apply to smooth ffd and rwd?
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by ltf3 »

Rustami wrote:
The test versions were made in Compressor 3.5.
Which settings? And when you say they play back fine in Logic, does it apply to smooth ffd and rwd?
Well, I mean the settings that produce Quicktime Movies in the CODECS and resolutions I specified. Alright, if you want to be picky "HD" = 1920 x 1080p @ 23.98 fps. "SD" = 960 x 540, 23.98fps for the ProRes Version and 720 x 480 (with letter boxing) for DV (this introduces Pull down which I would never do for anything but a test).

I also tried 1280 x 720 HD resolutions with no difference in Nuendo's native performance.

What I mean by "they worked fine in Logic" is that Video playback for all these files was smooth and precise. ffd (forward?) yes ... backwards (rwd?) er ... I don't often play things backwards ;-) . But the app locates, jogs, and scrubs fine for my needs.

I'm happy that playback via the Intensity is good .... but I want to use the Native playback too ... sometimes I do things on my laptop and it's required.

Lee
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Rustami »

Thanks! Actually I am asking for this info for developers, not to be that picky.
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by ltf3 »

Rustami wrote:Thanks! Actually I am asking for this info for developers, not to be that picky.
Fair enough too!!

Lee
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by psvennevig »

Just a chime in from me.

I use Apple Prores 422 HQ and proxy in all my Nuendo projects. And it works like a charm with on screen and Intensity pro.
It didn't in 5.1.0, lots of frames dropped.

I can't understand why the Prores files shouldn't work with your setup. The computer should be powerful enough.

Pål
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Denicio »

zvenx wrote:Fredo let me put this to you....have you looked at external forums and seen the reaction and complaints of SB users and ex-SB users compared to other DAW users and ex other DAW users....
I think I can safely state without contradiction based on the forums that I go on, that with the exception of maybe Logic...I think Steinberg has the second most negative reputation and user impressions......it isn't a conspiracy.....to me it is because Cubendo is such a great project made unfortunately by a 'not so great' company, to put it mildly.....so there is indeed a problem, not a 'problem'.

rsp
RSP,
Just keep repeating "Flaship" over and over....you'll start feeling better.
When Nuendo moved its direction to Post, it freaked me and many other audio guys out. Now that i see that its got the Post crowd up in arms, its almost amusing. I am such a huge fan of Nuendo....i've followed it since its birth.
Next time there is an upgrade, i am bailing on it and headed to Cubase. It seems the NON flagship product gets the love first.
I hope they HEAR you and fix your issues. I am still blown away that a DAW company released a version without a Mono button (nuendo 2) after it had had it in Version 1. A multi grammy nominated buddy of mine, who also uses nuendo, often asks me if the guys designing this stuff know anything about the audio recording process and if they test this stuff.

I love Nuendo, but never been all that in love with SB as a company. I recall someone from SB posting and about causing a riot at the old forums a few years ago. Fredo and others that post on this foum have been very helpful to me, but those above them often make me wonder. I about got banned from the fourms when i went on a rant about their customer service policies years ago. I just accept it these days. Its not improved and the way they roll out software is unchanged.

I no longer run a commercial facility so i dont need the branding that comes with NUENDO. Cubase will suffice.

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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by TimoWildenhain »

Dear forum members,

I'd like to give you a brief update about the current status of the video engine problem
analysis. Our team has spend the past two weeks figuring out why problems occur during
the playback (e.g. stutter video) and what this means in terms of the programming. As a result,
we've built a new, reworked video engine. In parallel to the in-house testing, this new version
is currently used in a real-world scenario test that is being conducted together with a couple
of post-production facilities.

As soon as this new version of the video engine has proven reliability and we can see the
respective issues not happening anymore, I'll come up with further information regarding
the public availability of the official update.

Thanks,
Timo
Timo Wildenhain - Head of Business Unit
Professional Audio Unit
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by zvenx »

thanks for the update Timo.
rsp
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by J L Bowie »

TimoWildenhain wrote:Dear forum members,

I'd like to give you a brief update about the current status of the video engine problem
analysis. Our team has spend the past two weeks figuring out why problems occur during
the playback (e.g. stutter video) and what this means in terms of the programming. As a result,
we've built a new Nuendo 5 version, which includes a reworked video engine. In parallel to the
in-house testing, this new version is currently used in a real-world scenario test that is being
conducted together with a couple of post-production facilities.

As soon as this new version of the video engine has proven reliability and we can see the
respective issues not happening anymore, I'll come up with further information regarding
the public availability of the official update.

Thanks,
Timo
A better and more efficient approach would be to make this update available for all of us to try now, at our own risk of course, which will broaden the testing field to a variety of scenarios that one or two post-production facilities will likely not cover, leaving the next release as vulnerable as the current one. We already know from experience that the idea of a longer wait period in order to ensure a more reliable release has yet to work in practice, opening it up could be the best decision you could make. Bottom line, what harm could it do?
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by goodbyenine »

I agree with Bowie. If you and your team can find a way to make sure everyone understands that it's a beta, and that it's at our own risk, I think there would be many takers.

I for one would do a quick install over a clone drive and test it without affecting my workflow (just an hour to test).

It would certainly bring up SOMETHING that will be missed by your current plan - admirable though that is!

As a side note - this level of communication from SB is a great step in the right direction, and very very re-assuring. I think we all appreciate it. Nearly there!

B
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by psvennevig »

The videoengine is a separate component, os it is easy to test.

P
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by TimoWildenhain »

goodbyenine wrote:I agree with Bowie. If you and your team can find a way to make sure everyone understands that it's a beta, and that it's at our own risk, I think there would be many takers.
Hello,

let me have a conversation with other team members. Maybe we can extend the beta tester circle.
Thanks very much for your suggestions and the willingsness to support this release!

Thanks,
Timo
Timo Wildenhain - Head of Business Unit
Professional Audio Unit
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany
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MattiasNYC
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by MattiasNYC »

TimoWildenhain wrote:
goodbyenine wrote:I agree with Bowie. If you and your team can find a way to make sure everyone understands that it's a beta, and that it's at our own risk, I think there would be many takers.
Hello,

let me have a conversation with other team members. Maybe we can extend the beta tester circle.
Thanks very much for your suggestions and the willingsness to support this release!

Thanks,
Timo
You're missing the original point maybe.... (?)
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by TimoWildenhain »

Lydiot wrote:
TimoWildenhain wrote:
goodbyenine wrote:I agree with Bowie. If you and your team can find a way to make sure everyone understands that it's a beta, and that it's at our own risk, I think there would be many takers.
Hello,

let me have a conversation with other team members. Maybe we can extend the beta tester circle.
Thanks very much for your suggestions and the willingsness to support this release!

Thanks,
Timo
You're missing the original point maybe.... (?)
Well I understand that the "communication to all users" is the main point. From our point of view,
this release should not be just a hotfix but a completely tested update. Many users are not
visiting the forums and don't know our conversations. Our goal is to make sure that these people
also get a stable, tested version.

Thanks,
Timo
Timo Wildenhain - Head of Business Unit
Professional Audio Unit
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany
Checkout Steinberg on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and MySpace!

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MattiasNYC
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by MattiasNYC »

TimoWildenhain wrote:Well I understand that the "communication to all users" is the main point.
That's not what I meant. Read Bowie's last post preceding this one. And it relates directly to the issue of being able to actually release a "stable, tested version".
TimoWildenhain wrote:From our point of view,
this release should not be just a hotfix but a completely tested update. Many users are not
visiting the forums and don't know our conversations. Our goal is to make sure that these people
also get a stable, tested version.

Thanks,
Timo
I'm sure you could make it clear that a release is BETA. Here's an example of it: "Nuendo5.x.x_BETA" The word "BETA" should tip users off that it is a BETA, and not final release.

I'm sorry, but I'm with Bowie on this one in that a public beta "will broaden the testing field to a variety of scenarios that one or two post-production facilities will likely not cover, leaving the next release as vulnerable as the current one. We already know from experience that the idea of a longer wait period in order to ensure a more reliable release has yet to work in practice"
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by MattiasNYC »

And by the way: I'm not the only one who has requested a larger and better beta team and has volunteered myself and others to do so. Fredo's explanation that we don't know whether or not beta found the problem really just points the finger in the direction of product development/management. Not an attractive alternate explanation. Just picking between two unflattering ones.

We're talking about the video engine of a post app. Not trivial stuff. And the notion that one bug "covered" another bug and that the latter was undetected or ignored in favour of release is a deeply unsatisfactory explanation.

In the case of the .aaf from FCP issue for example, the explanation was that one bug covered up another. Well compare the methodology of identifying, treating and testing the problem using one .aaf from a user, versus letting the last phase, testing the solution, be done by a larger community in a real world scenario: If you test it yourself using only the .aaf file that exhibited the problem you get what you now have - another bug "uncovered" after release - whereas giving a beta to the community and letting them do real world testing for a couple of weeks would have uncovered the other bug just like it did, before the release.

See the merits of what Bowie proposed?

Either do that or get the beta/management people to do their job better.
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by zvenx »

I am definitely a fan of public beta testing.
Native Instrument does it and it has been a win win for them.
PR wise and more stable products.
rsp
richard sven patterson
sound sculptist
--------------------------
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Re: Nuendo 5.1.1 - video engine

Post by Rustami »

I also think that maintenance updates could be tested by public.
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