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Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:59 pm
by TheNavigator
I always find it hilarious when people start defending something that is actually bad for them. :lol:

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:30 pm
by jaslan
TheNavigator wrote:I always find it hilarious when people start defending something that is actually bad for them. :lol:
Yes. Sometimes they just aren't able to see beyond their immediate surroundings. Hopefully, they will come around soon.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:43 pm
by thinkingcap
TheNavigator wrote:I always find it hilarious when people start defending something that is actually bad for them. :lol:
I find it presumtuous, when people start deciding, what is good or bad for others...

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:43 pm
by TheNavigator
thinkingcap wrote:
TheNavigator wrote:I always find it hilarious when people start defending something that is actually bad for them. :lol:
I find it presumtuous, if people think they can know what is good or bad for others...
Logic. Pure logic. :ugeek:

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:45 pm
by Plasuma
jaslan wrote:How can you claim the car key comparison to be invalid and then add increasingly more ridiculous details and descriptions to the comparison to support your argument?
No more comparisons, no more exaggerations.
Here it is, plain and simple...

Steinberg has the right to protect their product from theft, as you agreed to in the user agreement. If you don't like it, you are free to use another product.

You made the decision to buy. Nobody made you do it. If you are unhappy with your purchase, you have only yourself to blame.

J.L.
That is until laws dictate that they have to give me the right to control what I purchased, and they break those laws. There's a lot of pussyfooting going on around the new European software license laws, and it's going to be no different when they hit other parts of the world. Software developers who are comfortable with license control, and suddenly have that control taken from them and given back to users, will find enemies in their users.

There are some reasonable agreements, and there are some unreasonable ones. EULAs are 90% of the time filled with unreasonable terms that nobody bothers to read, and because of that, they don't stand up in court.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:46 pm
by TheNavigator
I'm not against anti - piracy - measures, I'm just against anti - comfortable use - measures and buy two dongles instead of one, thereby wasting money - measures.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:48 pm
by thinkingcap
TheNavigator wrote:I'm not against anti - piracy - measures, I'm just against anti - comfortable use - measures and buy two dongles instead of one, thereby wasting money - measures.
What is your point anyway with that "you have to buy two dongles" - you don´t have to buy two dongles to run several installations of the software.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:50 pm
by TheNavigator
thinkingcap wrote:
TheNavigator wrote:I'm not against anti - piracy - measures, I'm just against anti - comfortable use - measures and buy two dongles instead of one, thereby wasting money - measures.
What is your point anyway with that "you have to buy two dongles" - you don´t have to buy two dongles.
What if one dies? I have here a Mackie Big Knob which dies, a Line 6 Pod XT which died and an Akai MPD 32 which died.

And dongles are not actually sold at grocery stores...

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:56 pm
by thinkingcap
TheNavigator wrote:What if one dies? I have here a Mackie Big Knob which dies, a Line 6 Pod XT which died and an Akai MPD 32 which died.
What if it doesn´t die..?. Mine hasn´t died in 10 years and yes, I do have it on the road. Though surely it will one day, like everything else...
And what if your Laptop dies, and your max. number of installations is reached..? You need a new laptop and new software license.
Everything has its pros and cons - if you can´t live with the cons get something else...
TheNavigator wrote:And dongles are not actually sold at grocery stores...
Obviously not, and what´s the point with that...? Microphones also aren´t sold at grocery stores, but those who need one know where to get one...

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:01 pm
by jaslan
Plasuma wrote:That is until laws dictate that they have to give me the right to control what I purchased, and they break those laws. There's a lot of pussyfooting going on around the new European software license laws, and it's going to be no different when they hit other parts of the world. Software developers who are comfortable with license control, and suddenly have that control taken from them and given back to users, will find enemies in their users.
And guess what will happen then.... Higher prices for paying customers to cover the cost of sales lost to theft.

They're not blind. It's just that they won't see. -Ozzy Osbourne.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:53 pm
by Plasuma
jaslan wrote:
Plasuma wrote:That is until laws dictate that they have to give me the right to control what I purchased, and they break those laws. There's a lot of pussyfooting going on around the new European software license laws, and it's going to be no different when they hit other parts of the world. Software developers who are comfortable with license control, and suddenly have that control taken from them and given back to users, will find enemies in their users.
And guess what will happen then.... Higher prices for paying customers to cover the cost of sales lost to theft.

They're not blind. It's just that they won't see. -Ozzy Osbourne.
You use the word 'theft' like it applies to copyrighted works. It does not.

The term you're looking for is 'copyright infringement'.

The company doesn't lose anything that they can count if someone uses invalid copyrighted works - it's the fault of the uploader for breaking the copyright agreement, not the downloader. That's why they have to employ DRM schemes themselves that put pressure on users. Needless to say, it is not a healthy business practice to make your customers responsible for your success against their will.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:00 pm
by TheNavigator
Plasuma wrote:
jaslan wrote:
Plasuma wrote:That is until laws dictate that they have to give me the right to control what I purchased, and they break those laws. There's a lot of pussyfooting going on around the new European software license laws, and it's going to be no different when they hit other parts of the world. Software developers who are comfortable with license control, and suddenly have that control taken from them and given back to users, will find enemies in their users.
And guess what will happen then.... Higher prices for paying customers to cover the cost of sales lost to theft.

They're not blind. It's just that they won't see. -Ozzy Osbourne.
You use the word 'theft' like it applies to copyrighted works. It does not.

The term you're looking for is 'copyright infringement'.

The company doesn't lose anything that they can count if someone uses invalid copyrighted works - it's the fault of the uploader for breaking the copyright agreement, not the downloader. That's why they have to employ DRM schemes themselves that put pressure on users. Needless to say, it is not a healthy business practice to make your customers responsible for your success against their will.
Well, I disagree here, too.

I'm not pro - piracy, but I'm pro - "ease of use" and pro - flexibility.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:20 pm
by Plasuma
TheNavigator wrote:I'm not pro - piracy, but I'm pro - "ease of use" and pro - flexibility.
As part of a software development company myself, I'm not pro-piracy, either. Piracy plain sucks.

But there are better ways to deal with it and add value to the software that users are more willing to pay for. Dongles obviously don't add value for users. Look at Google trends for search terms of "Cubase" vs any other DAW. From about 2007 until now you'll see a steadily declining frequency of searches for Cubase, and more for other DAWs that don't employ the use of dongles or other forms of draconian DRM.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the software. I have been suggesting Cubase to new musicians and my peers regularly because I enjoy using it, but then the topic of dongles and demos that require dongles to use comes up and they look for alternatives that they can try before they buy. Showing it off just doesn't work - they want to use it, and have no trouble attempting to do so, but that isn't guaranteed with this kind of DRM.

Users just don't like being forced to handle the responsibility of protecting a company's intellectual property, especially when they don't get any compensation for it. Useful and helpful services are one way to make it 'worth it', but there are a lot of complaints about tech support for Cubase, and there's nothing beyond that to make the responsibility worthwhile, so in addition to the usual moaning around here about bugs and glitches, there are also complaints like mine and OP's: dongles suck.

Do those complaints matter to Steinberg? Should they matter?
Maybe. Google Trends suggests it might be worthwhile to analyze the market again, just to make sure things are on target.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:29 pm
by jaslan
Plasuma wrote:The company doesn't lose anything that they can count if someone uses invalid copyrighted works
I think they do. They lose a potential sale or royalty.
I mean "theft" generically, of course. There are multiple specific forms of "theft" in legal terms such as, embezzlement, larceny, shoplifting, petty theft, and copyright infringement, each with their own specific legal definitions. But they are all theft.
Plasuma wrote: But there are better ways to deal with it and add value to the software that users are more willing to pay for. Dongles obviously don't add value for users. Look at Google trends for search terms of "Cubase" vs any other DAW. From about 2007 until now you'll see a steadily declining frequency of searches for Cubase, and more for other DAWs that don't employ the use of dongles or other forms of draconian DRM.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the software. I have been suggesting Cubase to new musicians and my peers regularly because I enjoy using it, but then the topic of dongles and demos that require dongles to use comes up and they look for alternatives that they can try before they buy. Showing it off just doesn't work - they want to use it, and have no trouble attempting to do so, but that isn't guaranteed with this kind of DRM.

Users just don't like being forced to handle the responsibility of protecting a company's intellectual property, especially when they don't get any compensation for it. Useful and helpful services are one way to make it 'worth it', but there are a lot of complaints about tech support for Cubase, and there's nothing beyond that to make the responsibility worthwhile, so in addition to the usual moaning around here about bugs and glitches, there are also complaints like mine and OP's: dongles suck.

Do those complaints matter to Steinberg? Should they matter?
Maybe. Google Trends suggests it might be worthwhile to analyze the market again, just to make sure things are on target.
Steinberg is probably more concerned about sales figures than Google searches, Facebook "likes", or "tweets" but, if you are right, then sales will fall and they will have to modify their business model. Maybe they axe the dongle or maybe they just lower the price but that is for them to decide, not us. The only decision we have to make is whether or not to give up our hard earned money for their product, which is what we have done. We make our own decisions and have only ourselves to blame if we make the wrong one.
J.L.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:41 am
by Plasuma
jaslan wrote:
Plasuma wrote:The company doesn't lose anything that they can count if someone uses invalid copyrighted works
I think they do. They lose a potential sale or royalty.
I mean "theft" generically, of course. There are multiple specific forms of "theft" in legal terms such as, embezzlement, larceny, shoplifting, petty theft, and copyright infringement, each with their own specific legal definitions. But they are all theft.
They might be, but the perpetrator and perceived / actual loss are different in each example. For copyright infringement, specifically with software, it's a user who distributed the software without permission and with intent to deprive profit.

In some cases, the distributing / copyright breaching user can't be pinned with infringement because they don't make a profit or even have intent to deprive the company of anything. They just gave it away because they had it. However, most cases that actually make it to court are with users who were making ad revenue from hosting and distributing copyrighted content - that's definitely intent to deprive profit and makes sense to end.



But then there's this term, "potential sale". Statistics, specifically projected income for non-physical goods don't mean anything if the true demand is not known, since the supply is literally infinite. Used licenses would also fall under this term, "lost potential sale", which is why companies like Steinberg don't want people reselling / trading licenses despite it being a perfectly understandable right to want to have.

It has been asked: does a software company lose a sale if somebody freely downloads a software product that would otherwise have a pricetag? Some might think so, but the smart ones look at their pricing, services, and marketing first before they (and hopefully never) start blaming users for the fact that software has been pirated.

Almost 100% of the time, users who download pirated software don't even have the money to buy it and never intended to save for it, and their downloading and using it costs the software company exactly nothing. If their use of the software somehow added to costs or could be proven a loss without a doubt, pursuing legal and preventative action would be understandable, but the distribution of the product was fulfilled (albeit illegally) by someone else and all pirate users are off the tech support grid. The pirate users technically don't exist in the user-base or target market, and calling that a 'lost sale' is just an attempt to fabricate additional charges against an infringing user (who should be charged with infringement, but nothing else).

For the most part, new software is pirated for the same reasons why used software exists. It has nothing to do with user greed and everything to do with poor product design / management / marketing. If Steinberg were truly concerned about sales, they'd know this, but frankly they just seem incompetent in this context.



Now, dongles. Really, I would be fine if my copy of Cubase was keyed to something undoubtedly mine if the means for imprinting and validating that information was free, painless, secure, unobtrusive, instant, and invisible. Sadly, a dongle is none of those things, so DRM on Steinberg's (and many other companies') end can definitely be improved in terms of user experience.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:43 am
by jaslan
Plasuma wrote:It has been asked: does a software company lose a sale if somebody freely downloads a software product that would otherwise have a pricetag? Some might think so, but the smart ones look at their pricing, services, and marketing first before they (and hopefully never) start blaming users for the fact that software has been pirated.
I remember this argument from back in the Commodore 64 days. "It's not stealing if I would have never bought it in the first place." It is very self serving and convenient for someone to claim they would never have saved for or bought software, games, movies, music, etc., after they have already stolen it and are using/playing/listening/watching it.
Plasuma wrote: For the most part, new software is pirated for the same reasons why used software exists. It has nothing to do with user greed and everything to do with poor product design / management / marketing. If Steinberg were truly concerned about sales, they'd know this, but frankly they just seem incompetent in this context.
People pirate software because they don't want to pay for it.
Steinberg is incompetent? They have your money, so where does that put you?

I never said I LIKE the dongle, but I ACCEPTED the dongle when I made my purchase. I wouldn't complain about the color of a car to the dealer after I bought it.

The debate has gone off the topic.
My final statement... I have said it already so i will just cut and paste it because it is really the point I have been trying to make all along.
Steinberg has the right to protect their product from theft, as you agreed to in the user agreement. If you don't like it, you are free to use another product.
You made the decision to buy. Nobody made you do it. If you are unhappy with your purchase, you have only yourself to blame.

That's all for me.

Re: Seriously!?

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:47 am
by Dieselmachine
TheNavigator wrote:
Yes, the dongle annoys me. Other companies can do without (I own a lot of music software, including NI Komplete 8) - whats so special again about cubase7.exe that it can't have a working copy protection without some clunky hardware?
I'm really happy about the dongle solution and I'd wish NI would use a dongle too! Than I could use also this software everywhere (Studio, @Home, Rehearsal Room, etc.)

Cheers

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:14 pm
by -steve-
As regards Cubase 5 and earlier on PC, there were people who were and still are probably, using cracked versions, there's no ambiguity about whether they have rights to the license or not. With Cubase 6 the CP got strong enough to stop that.

Disk based protection is not as strong as the SB dongle.

Digital Performer 7 which uses disk based auth is cracked on Mac; now they have a PC version which I imagine the warez d00ds are hard at work on, so we'll see about that down the line.

Logic is cracked, Kontakt is too. Cubase is not. If I were Steinberg GMBH I would see no benefit to changing what works, and it appears that many users agree.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:26 pm
by KDEF2004
SteveInChicago wrote:As regards Cubase 5 and earlier on PC, there were people who were and still are probably, using cracked versions, there's no ambiguity about whether they have rights to the license or not. With Cubase 6 the CP got strong enough to stop that.

Disk based protection is not as strong as the SB dongle.

Digital Performer 7 which uses disk based auth is cracked on Mac; now they have a PC version which I imagine the warez d00ds are hard at work on, so we'll see about that down the line.

Logic is cracked, Kontakt is too. Cubase is not. If I were Steinberg GMBH I would see no benefit to changing what works, and it appears that many users agree.
+1000
On point!

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:35 pm
by distante
BTW, since I need to travel a lot, my 6 months old elicencer is already broken...

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:14 pm
by Guest
distante wrote:BTW, since I need to travel a lot, my 6 months old elicencer is already broken...
Then you need to be more careful , that's not steingbergs fault .My old sx3 dongle has travelled every weekend but still lives and does the job its meant too . What I LOVE about the dongle is if your studio is broken into and your comp is stolen while your away non of the programs are usable because the licenses are with you . So many people love to moan and be negative but this dongle is a big positive on protection and I love it !!!!!!
SteveInChicago wrote:As regards Cubase 5 and earlier on PC, there were people who were and still are probably, using cracked versions, there's no ambiguity about whether they have rights to the license or not. With Cubase 6 the CP got strong enough to stop that.

Disk based protection is not as strong as the SB dongle.

Digital Performer 7 which uses disk based auth is cracked on Mac; now they have a PC version which I imagine the warez d00ds are hard at work on, so we'll see about that down the line.

Logic is cracked, Kontakt is too. Cubase is not. If I were Steinberg GMBH I would see no benefit to changing what works, and it appears that many users agree.
I totally agree Steve

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:54 am
by Plasuma
jaslan wrote:I remember this argument from back in the Commodore 64 days. "It's not stealing if I would have never bought it in the first place." It is very self serving and convenient for someone to claim they would never have saved for or bought software, games, movies, music, etc., after they have already stolen it and are using/playing/listening/watching it.
That's the problem with this line of thought, nobody knows who "pirates" are or why they're downloading software. You just immediately assume they're self-serving jack-offs and strip all humanity from them. That's fine, you can keep your arrogance to fuel your ignorance, because the truth is right in front of your face and your pride makes it invisible.

I'll say it again, it's not the downloader who is stealing, it's the uploader / copyright infringing users. It's possible to get pirate users to buy software after they've had it for free if it's worth it to them, and more companies are following that model to great success because that's how software should work. If you see it any other way, you're just keeping your dogma fed.
jaslan wrote:People pirate software because they don't want to pay for it.
Steinberg is incompetent? They have your money, so where does that put you?

I never said I LIKE the dongle, but I ACCEPTED the dongle when I made my purchase. I wouldn't complain about the color of a car to the dealer after I bought it.
I bought it because I was willing to give it a chance, provided that it wasn't an inconvenience (as Steinberg promised me when I asked them prior to buying it). The dongle has proven multiple times to stop my projects dead in their tracks, and I want it gone because I love the software. If I run into problems with it again, I will have to switch DAWs. It's going to suck because I love using Cubase, but there's no question that dongle troubles have cost me too much to keep dealing with it.
jaslan wrote: The debate has gone off the topic.
My final statement... I have said it already so i will just cut and paste it because it is really the point I have been trying to make all along.
Steinberg has the right to protect their product from theft, as you agreed to in the user agreement. If you don't like it, you are free to use another product.
You made the decision to buy. Nobody made you do it. If you are unhappy with your purchase, you have only yourself to blame.

That's all for me.
I made the decision based on all information I could find, and was initially happy. I wound up dissatisfied and now I can't sell my copy to recoup costs - if I could, I'd have Steinberg pay for all my "potential lost contracts" because of it, too. I don't expect perfection, I expect the damn thing to work when I need it to.

Besides that, we're not off-topic, and if you're going to start being a self-important douchenozzle, this discussion between us really is over.

Re: Seriously!?

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:08 am
by Plasuma
Dieselmachine wrote:
TheNavigator wrote:
Yes, the dongle annoys me. Other companies can do without (I own a lot of music software, including NI Komplete 8) - whats so special again about cubase7.exe that it can't have a working copy protection without some clunky hardware?
I'm really happy about the dongle solution and I'd wish NI would use a dongle too! Than I could use also this software everywhere (Studio, @Home, Rehearsal Room, etc.)

Cheers
You can install NI's service center on any computer and even use the same products on multiple machines simultaneously without needing to buy another license. It's pretty great.

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:16 am
by -steve-
Plasuma wrote: was initially happy. I wound up dissatisfied and now I can't sell my copy to recoup costs
Why can't you sell your license?

Re: Cubase Artist requires the USB eLicenser

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:28 am
by distante
filterfreak wrote:Then you need to be more careful , that's not steingbergs fault .My old sx3 dongle has travelled every weekend but still lives and does the job its meant too .
And how can you know that I'm not? :roll: