Page 1 of 2

Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:58 pm
by gyorgyL
"Quote" : VST Expression: Vienna Symphonic Library titles now work correctly with Expression maps, even when the entry for Articulation 1 is empty. :shock:


Sorry to write this again but how can You announce this when the problem is still the same since cubase 6 ?

On 1.1.1.0 The first articulation haven't, at the moment°, work as I wanted, if I put , for exemple, a tremolo or harmonic articulation for violins it will start by a non legato event, also the D key in the articulation is inserted on the virtual keyboard...
If I knew such problem to be so reccurent, I will never had upgraded from 5.5.3 to 6, I am losing time..and patience...

(°) For Ron

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:59 am
by Ron Garrison
This is also fixed in the free 6.0.6 update.

http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&t=19772

Ron

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:57 am
by gyorgyL
I don't think is fixed ... why in 6.0.6 if not in 6.5.1 ???

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:27 pm
by Ron Garrison
You said "On 1.1.1.0 The first articulation haven't, until now, work as I wanted". That's telling me that it is now fixed. If that's not what you meant please reword. Tell us step by step what is going on. As others have been happy with the fix.

I was under the impression that you were unhappy because you would have to pay for the fix which is why I pointed out the free update.

Ron

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:25 pm
by gyorgyL
Ron Garrison wrote:You said "On 1.1.1.0 The first articulation haven't, until now, work as I wanted". That's telling me that it is now fixed. If that's not what you meant please reword. Tell us step by step what is going on. As others have been happy with the fix.

I was under the impression that you were unhappy because you would have to pay for the fix which is why I pointed out the free update.

Ron
Sorry for the misunderstand, I translated as best as I can , so I did a new edit. have you tryied the VST expressions with VSL and CUBASE 6.0.6 ? Are they working with all the first articulations at 1.1.1.0 as TREMOLO, HARMONIC... ???

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:44 pm
by fizbin
You're first post indicates that they work for you currently. What more do you need? Compose away.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:06 pm
by gyorgyL
fizbin wrote:You're first post indicates that they work for you currently. What more do you need? Compose away.
? :roll: No sir it doesn't work, Cubase 6 doesn't make the first articulation related to the VST map expression working, I only do compose with 5.5.3, the Cubase 6 and all of its updates and uprades just make me :cry:

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:53 pm
by fizbin
gyorgyL wrote:VST Expression: Vienna Symphonic Library titles now work correctly with Expression maps
Probably a language thing, but it says clearly that they do work.

What if you delete that first empty expression from the map? What good is it?

Upload the map as an attachment to the thread here so we can see it. Also upload the VSL manual that describes the keyswitching you need to use. Also indicate the patch name for the map so we can match it up to the right one in the manual.

The problem may be with VSL. My expression maps have been working, but the only VSL libraries I have are the old Opus 1 & 2 for Kontakt. I made my own for a couple patches and they work fine.

Good luck,
Jay

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:25 pm
by Strophoid
That first line he posted in the OP is quoted from the patch release notes Fizbin ;)
After which he goes on to say 'how can you say that'.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:01 pm
by gyorgyL
VSL hotline wrote : In the meantime I have done some tests with Cubase 6.5 and it seems the situation got better,BUT one bug remains. Cubase 6.5 still doesn't play "Attribute" articulations that are attached to the first note of a track.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:01 am
by fizbin
Strophoid wrote:That first line he posted in the OP is quoted from the patch release notes Fizbin ;)
After which he goes on to say 'how can you say that'.
OK, I might have a language problem.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:06 am
by fizbin
gyorgyL wrote:VSL hotline wrote : In the meantime I have done some tests with Cubase 6.5 and it seems the situation got better,BUT one bug remains. Cubase 6.5 still doesn't play "Attribute" articulations that are attached to the first note of a track.
Hmmm...I can get an articulation to play on the first note at 1.1.1.0. Just verified with Trilian. This is for a keyswitch-triggered articulation.

Are the VSL articulations something other than simple keyswitches?

I can even record the MIDI of my VST expression-articulated track onto another track through a loopback driver and verify that it's simply triggering the keyswitches.

Could you upload your expression map and pdf manual? That will help explain a lot.

EDIT: no need for the manual/map if the post below explains things. I believe it will.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:23 am
by fizbin
Let me ask this...is your articulation keyswitch above the instrument range or below? Either way, I think VST Expression may be trying to nudge the keyswitch slightly ahead of the actual note it's associated with to make sure it is recognized, yet at 1.1.1.0, it has nowhere to go.

The problem here is that MIDI can only send one message at the exact same time. This goes back to the MIDI standard. If you know a little about electricity, you'll understand why two MIDI messages cannot exist on the same MIDI wire at the exact same time, though with a modern MIDI standard built around modern technology there might be a way around somethng like this. MIDI is something like 30 years old. To work around the non-simultaneous-note restriction, even if notes are on the same exact beat, or exact same point in MIDI, in Cubase the note-on messages of lower notes occur before upper notes, just very, very slightly.

It has always been that in Cubase, if you play a key switch above the instrument range at the same time as a note in the instrument range, the note will not recognize the key switch, because the keyswitch occurs very slightly afterwards. I think it's even the reverse in Reaper, where the upper notes occur first. Every host that has to send MIDI probably has to do this. Certainly hardware expects this, and I wouldn't doubt that VST instruments are coded to expect MIDI notes never to be exactly simultaneous.

Before articulation maps, keyswitches that occur above the instrument note range had to be physically placed before the actual notes they would affect. Pain in the rear.

Along came articulation/expression maps in Cubase 5, and this nearly took care of the whole problem. When your articulation is associated to the note, it takes care of playing the keyswitch a little before the note when the keyswitches occur above the instrument range. The only problem is when you have a note at 1.1.1.0. Cubase can't nudge it forward and play the keyswitched note before that point, so the articulation does not trigger.

The real answer to the problem here is to never start a song on 1.1.1.0.

I never do. It can be problematic for a number of reasons other than this IMO, many involving negative delays or offsets like this.

Select all, including a tempo track, if you have any changes. Slide everything right a couple measures. You're done.

Oh, also, when I export, I never export starting exactly at the beginning of the song. I'd expect similar issues in that case, though I can't be sure, since I've literally never tried it.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:09 am
by gyorgyL
Quote : The real answer to the problem here is to never start a song on 1.1.1.0. ( fizbin ) :)

i wasn't a problem under cubase 5.5.3 .
the expression maps are available on VSL web site.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:16 pm
by fizbin
gyorgyL wrote:Quote : The real answer to the problem here is to never start a song on 1.1.1.0. ( fizbin ) :)

i wasn't a problem under cubase 5.5.3 .
the expression maps are available on VSL web site.
Then Cubase was moving the actual played notes back to accomodate the keyswitch, instead of moving the keyswitch forward. Seems like they made a conscious decision to not move the notes that you hear, and only move the keyswitch.

I'd just move everything right a couple measures and get on with things.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:31 pm
by gyorgyL
? :? ???

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:05 pm
by fizbin
I've been in your shoes. Convinced that some bug was a complete showstopper. I'd never be able to work with that tool as long as it existed.

Here's your solution.

In the menu, go to Project > Tempo Track
Now place the cursor all the way to the left. At 1.1.1.0
There is a button, usually on the far right at the top. If you hover over it, it will show a tool tip saying "Open Process Bars Dialog".
Click that button.
In the dialog, make sure that the "Action" is set to "Insert Bars".
Make sure "Start" is "1" and "Length" is 1 or more. Click "Process"

Move on with life.

Or don't and either ditch one of the best hosts in the universe or completely grind to a halt and produce nothing while you wait for some fix that affects one in every one billion MIDI notes in Cubase.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:02 pm
by gyorgyL
fizbin wrote:I've been in your shoes. Convinced that some bug was a complete showstopper. I'd never be able to work with that tool as long as it existed.

Here's your solution.

In the menu, go to Project > Tempo Track
Now place the cursor all the way to the left. At 1.1.1.0
There is a button, usually on the far right at the top. If you hover over it, it will show a tool tip saying "Open Process Bars Dialog".
Click that button.
In the dialog, make sure that the "Action" is set to "Insert Bars".
Make sure "Start" is "1" and "Length" is 1 or more. Click "Process"

Move on with life.

Or don't and either ditch one of the best hosts in the universe or completely grind to a halt and produce nothing while you wait for some fix that affects one in every one billion MIDI notes in Cubase.
Thank You fizbin to try to help me , but my tempo track is exactly how you describe it , and ...it doesn't work...
The solution is on the hands of Steinberg, VST articulations works fine with Cubase 5.5.3 ( which I continue to utilise with VSL orchestra), but not with 6.5.1 which I use for the new synths along others synths and more lighter projects , without VSL of course...

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:59 pm
by fizbin
So the articulation doesn't occur even when the first note is later than 1.1.1.0?

As you had described, I took it to mean that it only failed when it was an articulation on a note at 1.1.1.0.

Please explain.

I can't repro this problem on anything that I have.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:16 am
by gyorgyL
VSL hotline wrote : In the meantime I have done some tests with Cubase 6.5 and it seems the situation got better,BUT one bug remains. Cubase 6.5 still doesn't play "Attribute" articulations that are attached to the first note of a track.

in trying VSL contrabass section + with VSL contrabass expression maps I point that on the first note ( 1.1.1.0 )
the following articulations doesn't play :
Tremolo
pizz
col legno
stacc
detache
forte piano
:(

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:28 pm
by fizbin
Let me ask again, did you move your project to the right in the timeline so that the first note doesn't occur at 1.1.1.0?

You can do this by selecting all and moving it manually, or going to the tempo track and inserting measures at the beginning, as I described above. The latter method would tend to be less error prone.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:33 pm
by gyorgyL
Quote :

by kbostroem » 20 Mar 2012 21:14

... just tried it with Cubase 5 (more precisely 5.5.3): it works as it should! Articulations are recognized from the very first note on.
So I guess I have to forget the money spent on Cubase updates 6 and 6.5 and return to 5 in order to use Expression maps. It's a pity. And a shame, too.

What else ?

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:01 am
by fizbin
Insert an empty measure at the beginning.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:00 am
by gyorgyL
Doesn't work, I have no way to use trick like that, I pay software for working properly, not to use my patience to try this or that. If nothing is fixed in the near future , I know what I am going to do ...A year of patience is more than enough.

Re: Cubase 6.5.1 VST expressions

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:16 am
by gyorgyL
VSL user quote :
Hm... just installed the most recent update Cubase 6.5.1. Now it's even worse: Note expressions are completely ignored when the song is played. Strange enough: when I select a single note, it correctly switches to the articulation (staccato). But when playing the whole thing no expression is recognized. Unusable :!: